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Time for a national discussion on immigration


Thursday, July 17th, 2014
Issue 29, Volume 18.
Assemblymember Marie Waldron (R) AD-75


The debate over the nation’s border policies continues. In this region, the debate is fueled by the regular arrival of planeloads of illegal immigrants from Texas for processing at facilities in San Diego and Riverside counties.

A facility to house these immigrants was recently rejected by Escondido authorities over land-use concerns. In addition, citizens of Murrieta have prevented busloads of newly-arrived illegal immigrants from being unloaded at the Murrieta Border Patrol facility.

For decades, the federal government has been largely ignoring the issue of illegal immigration. Through multiple administrations, our borders have not been secured. Now that the issue has reached a crisis stage, the federal government’s only solution appears to be to transport the incoming illegal immigrants to places like Escondido or Murrieta Advertisement
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for rapid release, presumably to other family members.

This grotesque dereliction of duty, which diverts Border Patrol agents from essential duties like drug interdiction, is being orchestrated at the highest levels of the federal government.

Whatever the reasons for federal inaction may be: indifference, incompetence, political expediency or ideology, the result is the same. The nation’s leaders are derelict in their sworn constitutional duty to protect our citizens, our borders, our national sovereignty.

The underlying humanitarian concerns do not outweigh the negative national consequences resulting from open borders. Failure to secure the border will lead to disaster; just ask the citizens of Iraq or Ukraine about that.

I call upon responsible federal authorities to honor their oaths to the Constitution by securing the nation’s borders now.


 

32 comments

Comment Profile ImageJon Monday
Comment #1 | Friday, Jul 18, 2014 at 10:45 am
I can’t help but think of the hundreds of thousands of Jews who were denied visas or turned away from America’s shores prior to WWII.

There was a movement to let the Jews in, but anti-Semitism and fear blocked their escape from the Nazis.

Now we have families, mostly children, who are fleeing for their lives from corrupt governments, drug cartels, and death squads. These good people come to American to seek safety and are turned away by hate and fear. America is responsible for a lot of the problems in Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador that has resulted in dysfunctional governments and swarms of armed criminals.

If a Cuban reaches our shores, they are embraced. Why not these Advertisement
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[ Christ the King Lutheran Church ] people, who only ask for protection and an opportunity to prove they want a better life? Except for Native Americans, this is how our ancestors came here – in between waves of open and closed immigration policies. This is not political – it’s only about our humanity. A "What Would Jesus Do?" kind of issue, which our nation of immigrants must face.

Addressing the Reichstag in 1939 Hitler mocked the US attitude towards taking in the Jews when he said, "It is a shameful example to observe today how the entire democratic world dissolves into tears of pity but then, in spite of its obvious duty to help, closes its heart to the poor, tortured people."
Comment Profile Imagegrunt
Comment #2 | Friday, Jul 18, 2014 at 12:41 pm
Big difference between Jews and the current group. Jews, as a race, were being exterminated. They fled, or tried to to not for a better life, but life itself. The Jews that came here WANTED to assimalte; they did not not want to bring Germany with them; The Jews that came here, for the most part, ADDED to America, they brought skills and knowledge - again becuase they chosen for who they were. RIght now, we are not getting the middle or upper class from Central America- those that come are hoping for amansty, hoping for Government aid. The situatuon in Central America has been ongoing for decades, we can not save every poor or unhappy person in the world. The Marcel boat lift was also a mistake, Castro dumped his crimanal element, those that he did not want on us. It is 100% political, (the current immigration problem). Look around at the changes taking place - in California AMERICAN school students were told not to display the AMERICAN flag on Cinco de Mayo as it would upset the Mexican students. I was nto around then, but I would belive that the Jews that escaped Hilter proudly waved the AMERICAN flag.
Comment Profile ImageBert
Comment #3 | Saturday, Jul 19, 2014 at 8:12 am
I guess Grunt's point is that acceptance should be selective. That is logical. However, stereotyping and scapegoating are an intellectually lazy and invalid way of being selective. The relevance of the Ship of the darned story is that several nations excluded people in desperate need based on such "selectivity". Waldron waves the flag of xenophobia by her absurd characterization of the temporary sheltering of refugee children as an invasion comparable to the events in Ukraine. As far as Iraq goes, I have to admit I can't even tell what she means. The main country that invaded Iraq in recent history was...
Comment Profile ImageMike W
Comment #4 | Sunday, Jul 20, 2014 at 11:31 am
Waldron is just a tea party politician, so we don't expect her to make sense as she tries to associate these kids with Ukraine and Iraq ? Yikes !!
Actually that is a good idea, asking the people of Ukraine and Iraq about how well the regime changes we orchestrated in their countries is working for them, as anyone can see, not very well at all.

Hats off to the Prez and all the immigration folks trying to do the right thing and help these kids find their families. That's what my America is all about. "In Giving you get"
Comment Profile ImageJoemamma
Comment #5 | Monday, Jul 21, 2014 at 6:11 pm
From what I understand these kids ARE running for their lives. As Americans we need to take SOME responsibility here. We allow our big AG and energy companies (Monsanto Exxon/Mobil) to go down there and rape the land in the name of profits, steal peoples farms and cut down their forests yet we get mad when they come north looking for work? And don't even get me started on the failed drug war funding the violent cartels.
Comment Profile ImageReally?
Comment #6 | Wednesday, Jul 23, 2014 at 2:11 pm
Have immigration-reform cheerleaders such as Jon Monday or Mike W offered some of the rooms in their home as a temporary shelter for needy Central American immigrants? Or put some cash up for rent on a homeless shelter? Couldn't Mikey welcome some homeless immigrants unto his farm? Wonder if you would change your hypocritical mind if 200 or 300 or 400 border crisis kids were to move into your neighborhood. As long as the rest of us have to bear the burden of this border crisis, it is fine with you. You step up to the plate, Mondays, and do your fair share. Come on now, Mikey!

Get you "morally right thinking" rears down to Central America and make it a better place for its citizens to stay. Until then, more of the same hyporcritical liberals spouting straw man arguments.
Comment Profile ImageMike W
Comment #7 | Wednesday, Jul 23, 2014 at 3:59 pm
What burden are you talking about Really? Why is it you (people) feel so burdened, I can not honestly see where they have changed anything in my life by being here, I feel no added financial stress and neither do you so why should you allow yourself to get so bent out of shape about something that does not noticeably have any effect you at all. Oh but the Idea of it is unbearable to you, I would gladly have as many here as would fit, if this red neck town would let me.
Although I see a lot of pain in your writings, I believe you are a good man so take off the boxing gloves, sit back and take the following information in and let it roll around in your head a while.

If you make $50,000 per year, you pay:
* $247.75 a year for defense (interest payment to the Fed)
* $3.98 a year for natural disaster relief (FEMA)
* $22.88 a year for unemployment insurance
* $36.82 a year for SNAP (food stamps)
* $6.92 a year for welfare
* $43.78 a year for retirement and disability to government workers (civilian and military)
* $235.81 a year for Medicare
* $4,000 a year in corporate subsidies

The richer we have become materially, the poorer we've become morally and spiritually, We have learned to fly the air like birds and swim the sea like fish, but we have not learned the art of living together like brothers ~ Martin Luther King Jr.
Comment Continued : The comment above was written from the same location.
Post Continued
Comment Profile ImageMike W
Comment #8 | Wednesday, Jul 23, 2014 at 5:08 pm
PS this should clear some things up for people who are willing to take a broader view ~

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAqG51uwzMI&list=PLCFC50000766B264E
Comment Profile ImageHc
Comment #9 | Thursday, Jul 24, 2014 at 2:27 am
we can not even help our own. Veterans are suffering yet we are willing to help illegals? There is a process to go through to get in America LEGALLY, my grandparents did it, my parents did it, why shouldn't they have to do it? This isn't temporary either, there court dates are a year away, and if you actually cared so much about them feel free to foster one of these "children." These "children" are 12-30's atleast. Some are ms13 members running from rival gangs .... la raza HATES Americans, they believe in only "one race" the "hispanic race," once again, we need to help our own, before we help others, a way to fix this is to HELP THEIR COUNTRY, NOT INVADE OURS. When you OR A FAMILY MEMBER get some rare disease that is now floating in MANY states caused my this invasion, then I PROMISE your mindset will not be lets help them and BYPASS our immigration laws. They are there FOR THE SAFETY OF OUR COUNTRY, NOT TO PREVENT RACE, so drop the race card, drop the "for the children", do it THE RIGHT WAY!
Comment Profile ImageReally?
Comment #10 | Thursday, Jul 24, 2014 at 11:41 am
Pain in my writing? One wonders where you get your meandering fantasies. No Sir, I garner nothing but pleasure in pointing out the hypocricy of people trying to save the planet, rescue the exploited, create “social justice” and otherwise, at the expense of their fellow citizens. These constant demands and in-your-face attitude of you 'progressive' activists is wearing very thin.

As I stated earlier I'm not hearing from you or Monday volunteering to "sponsor" these people in your homes. And if you ever do decide to put your money where your mouth is and house, clothe and feed some of these folks, without making them pick your fruit, I will insist on selecting them for you.

And I'll be picking the tattooed ones first for you left-wingers.
Comment Profile ImageRedneck Bill
Comment #11 | Friday, Jul 25, 2014 at 4:42 pm
Please don't respond to this Really because I'm only JV and therefore unqualified to converse with you, a full fledged varsity member.

But I can't resist noting the rich irony in Really's? (And I can tell this is the real really) post calling anyone an in-your-face anything. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. If I had the interest I'd go back and select a few of his many in-your-face comments and repost them here. Pretty darn amusing.
Comment Profile ImageReally?
Comment #12 | Monday, Jul 28, 2014 at 6:20 am
Awww...Redneck, You funny guy.

In other words, you just have another uninformed opinion? Is that what you're saying?

Sometimes it's just sad about how uncool you’ve become.
Comment Profile ImageRedneck Bill
Comment #13 | Monday, Jul 28, 2014 at 8:43 am
I see the Homer Simpson reverse psychology worked with you. I'm a bit surprised, given your depth of understanding of the discipline. Perhaps you aren't correct 100 percent of the time?

Sorry, sorry, sorry. I'll go haze myself right now for thinking such nonsense. Your opinion, Oh Great One, is the only informed opinion, and therefore the only one of any importance.

At least you're a kind person, what with you being the cool Varsity guy and all, showing a willingness to converse with uncool me. Gosh, I'm just so beside myself.

I'm going to be busy for a few days really, so if I don't chase the ball it's not because I don't appreciate you throwing it, and it's not because my other stuff is more important, it's just my poor time management skills might prevent it.
Comment Profile ImageOn Waldon's Pondering
Comment #14 | Tuesday, Jul 29, 2014 at 4:25 am
Waldon should ponder the immigration issue a bit more like, you know, with facts... (really, what is it with so many politicians -- is there some kind of low hanging fruit test they have to pass first?)

So let's talk about IRAQ... and every single war throughout US history.

"On Dec. 18, 2011, the United States pulled its troops out of Iraq, ending an eight-year war in which immigrant soldiers made remarkable contributions to the American cause.

During the peak of the war, more than 30,000 non-citizens were serving in the U.S. military, accounting for close to 2% of the total 1.4 million active duty service members.

By the end of the Iraq war, the government had given more than 120 immigrant military members posthumous citizenship after they lost their lives during combat in Afghanistan and Iraq.

After 9/11, President George W. Bush signed an executive order that allowed for expedited citizenship for non-citizen, legal U.S. residents who enlisted in the military. Section 329 of the Immigration & Nationality Act gives the president the authority to allow non-citizen service members a fast track to citizenship during periods when the nation is engaged in armed conflict.

The change brought tens of thousands of so-called “green-card soldiers” into the U.S. armed forces.

Many of them took advantage of the opportunity to become American citizens. From 9/11 until the end of the Iraq war, about 75,000 foreigners in the military became U.S. citizens.

Most of them served in Iraq and took their citizenship oaths in the United States. About 3,500 were naturalized while serving in Iraq and another 1,000 in Afghanistan, according to United States Citizenship and Immigration Services.

At the height of the war, the U.S. military had about 115,000 foreign-born service members, or about 7.9% of the total military. About 80% of them were naturalized citizens.

Foreigners have served in the U.S. military since the Revolutionary War, distinguishing themselves on battlefields from Gettysburg, to Normandy, to Vietnam, to Baghdad. Roughly a third of the non-citizens in the armed forces today are from Latin America and the Caribbean. Many others are from Canada, China, Vietnam, India, Nigeria, Turkey and Korea."

http://immigration.about.com/od/usimmigrationhistory/a/Immigrant-Soldiers-Gave-Much-To-U-S-In-Iraq.htm

The teabaggers and conservative wingnuts can now look at their xenophobia (aka: immigration) this way: more cannon fodder for your war fetishes. For it is children such as these who come to America and seek asylum who will grow up to join the US military and risk their lives so the ignorant Waldon's and other assorted wingnuttery can continue to freely espouse their boneheaded babble.

The rest of us will say to these patriotic immigrants (and all other military personnel) who have served our nation, thank you for your service.
Comment Profile ImagePreston
Comment #15 | Tuesday, Jul 29, 2014 at 7:36 am
Regardless of you stance on immigration, any Nation that does not enforce its National Laws will eventually fail and every country that the illegals come from understand that better than we do.
Comment Profile ImageMike W
Comment #16 | Tuesday, Jul 29, 2014 at 5:40 pm
I'm all for keeping the children and deporting the bigots ... That would do our country a lot of good.
Comment #15 .. Don't you think the US would be a great example of what you are trying to say? After all we've had so called illegals coming into this country since the beginning of time when we were the illegals. This country is going down the tubes but it has nothing to do with your Illegals and everything to do with so called "legal" foreigners running our money supply (Fed) and having way too much power within our government like (AIPAC) You know, that place where all aspiring politicians must go, genuflect and promise unwavering love and support for a foreign country, Israel. A country busying itself occupying land that doesn't belong to them while wiping their neighbors off the face of the map, destroying yet more ancient groves, orchards waterways and homes and all evidence that Palestine ever existed. Today we see politicians like Harry Reid and others falling all over themselves to put together another aid package full of cash to help their ethnic cleansing project.
I'm all for deporting all the Zionists infiltrating the white house and all important government positions starting with Wolfowitz, Perle, Fife and all the other neoconservatives and self proclaimed Zionist like our VP, "I'm a Zionist, you know you don't have to be Jewish to be a Zionist." Joseph Robinette Biden, Jr. What a tool he is.

There is sanity in the world, it was heartwarming to see over 10,000 Jews and Rabbi's filling the streets in New York City in support of the Palestinians and condemning Israel's latest bombing of hospitals and apartments, killing record numbers of children, and using white phosophorus just "for fun"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8151611.stm

Jews Say No! activist Dorothy Zellner lamented that outsiders assume the Jewish community uniformly supports Israel. “This is heartbreaking. Everyone thinks Israel represents us and speaks for us,” she said.
“I think there’s a myth that the Jewish community supports the Israeli attack on Gaza,” she added, and asserted that there are “hundreds of thousands” of Jews in the U.S. that oppose the Israeli occupation.
Most of the Jewish protesters interviewed opposed Israeli policies long before the current campaign. But they view the current hostilities as deplorable, or even criminal.
“It’s with our weapons, and our funding, and we’re complicit in war crimes,” said Jenny Heinz, a Jewish senior citizen wearing a keffiyah. “My parents escaped from [Nazi] Germany. ‘Never again’ was always understood by me to mean never again for anyone.”

http://forward.com/articles/202796/jews-march-in-new-york-rally-against-israel-war-in/
Comment Profile ImageTerry Leather
Comment #17 | Wednesday, Jul 30, 2014 at 5:47 am
#14 is Sooooo Right, just saw this on the AP today!!!!

Veterans Posing As Illegal Immigrants To Get Help

EL PASO, Texas (WNB) - An increasing number of American war veterans are turning up among immigrant "dreamers" illegally entering the U.S. in an attempt to obtain assistance and needed medical treatment.

"It's pretty obvious - a 67-year-old guy dressed as a Mexican child is hard to miss," said one HHS aid worker. "We've been told to care for everyone coming across the border, so we do."

"I didn't really have a choice," said one Vietnam veteran who calls himself 'Little Lupe.' "While I was sick and starving, Obama's importing thousands of illegal aliens and giving them everything. I've been here two days and have already received great food, medical care, sexual identity orientation, new clothes, and some great toys."

The Obama administration admits "some" veterans are masquerading as "dreamers," but refuse to divulge how many, but sources say the number is in the hundreds and increasing every day.
Comment Profile ImagePink
Comment #18 | Wednesday, Jul 30, 2014 at 2:04 pm
Mike: I'm not certain how the situation in the Middle East ended up in a conversation about immigration, but since you bring it up, I have a question for you. Have you ever heard of Hamas? Israel is under attack everyday from rocket fire initiated by this terrorist group. Hamas has absolutely NO regard for the fact that they are putting innocent civilians in harms way, in fact they rejoice in it, using women and children as human shields!! I deplore the violence and loss of life along the Gaza Strip as much as you do, but Israel is merely defending itself. Hamas has rejected all talks of peace, and even when there is a truce, they continue to lob mortars at the Israelies. They also murdered 3 innocent Israelie teenagers. These are not nice people, they are zealots with no concern at all for human rights or human life! How can you condemn Israel and not condemn Hamas?
Comment Profile ImageMike W
Comment #19 | Thursday, Jul 31, 2014 at 3:49 pm
Sorry for getting sidetracked but mass Immigration is a symptom of a world in turmoil, not the cause, the cause is much closer to home.
You couldn't be more wrong about the Middle East Pink, but one can't blame you, what with the lack of viable news and factual information available to us here in the USofA, and what information we do get is usually one sided. Don't get me wrong, the information is out there but you have to work a great deal to get it and most working folks just don't have the time. The idea that the Jews came to a wasteland and turned into a garden in spite of a bunch of lazy warring Arabs is just not true, there are plenty of photos and old newsreels out there that show a beautiful and prosperous Palestine with waterways, many orchards and plantations a majority of Arabs and minority of Jews worked in harmony, side by side, and were the first to supply the world with their famous Jaffa Oranges .. This following documentary, "Jaffa - The Orange’s Clockwork" narrates the visual history of the famous citrus fruit originated from Palestine and known worldwide for centuries as "Jaffa oranges". The history of the orange is the history of this land. Through photography and cinema, poetry, paintings, workers of the citruses’ industry and historians, memory and present mythologies, Palestinians and Israelis cross and combine. The close reading of the Jaffa brand's visual representation is a reflection on western orientalist phantasms surrounding the ‘holy land’ and the ‘State of Israel’ and a tool to reveal the untold story of what was once a commune industry and symbol to Arabs and Jews in Palestine.

Please watch ~ http://www.linktv.org/programs/jaffa-the-oranges-clockwork

The next is some factual history from an Israeli man who served in the military where his father was a general, they fought in the wars but eventually both changed their views and now give testimony everything about how the original “deal” was in reality a slap in the face to the Arabs because it gave the greater portion of land to the Jews.

Don’t think you know anything about Israel until you see this ~

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OMIknfMUV4

A former leader of American Jewish Congress has strongly condemned Israel’s war on the Gaza Strip, saying “the Zionist dream is based on slaughter of innocents.”
Henry Siegman, who is also a former Senior Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations and president of the US/Middle East Project, and refers to Israel as a "de-facto apartheid" regime and says that the "two-state solution is dead." He has also denounced the so-called peace process in the occupied Palestinian territories as a "scam" because of a "consensus reached long ago by Israel's decision-making elites that Israel will never allow the emergence of a Palestinian state."
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/31/373510/us-rabbi-israel-slaughtering-innocents/

Now just one last ditch effort to convince you that many more Europeans and Asians etc often know much more about our foreign policies than we do here in the land of the free but first you must be cautious about letting old ideas get in the way when talking about Russia and Putin since most of us automatically think of our long time enemy, The Soviet Union when anyone mentions either Russia and Putin who are both being demonized in western media in support of our CIA’s overthrow of the government of Ukraine and eventual partnering of NATO, IMF and Ukraine. You did know that the new Ukrainian government up and quit didn't you ? They say i9t's in protest to the deal offered by the IMF and austerity measures.
Never the less, in the first minute of following interview Putin nails our biggest problem within our government as clearly and plainly as anyone can ask for ~
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39284.htm

PS Please don't respond until you have taken the time to watch and listen with an open mind the information offered. It is a stretch at best to believe God gave this or any other land to anyone of designated any people his chosen people over all others, and downright ludicrous to expect anyone with a rational mind to believe such a thing, yet many people do and that is the door to racism, the idea that one race is better or more deserving than another.
From what Jesus said, and my own personal experience, that's just not how God rolls..
Comment Profile ImageJon Monday
Comment #20 | Friday, Aug 1, 2014 at 10:49 am
Hi Mike,

Hate to disagree, but I think you know little of the history of the Jews in the area of Palestine, including historic issues (like the Jews being forced into exiled from Jerusalem, their natural homeland.

I have family who are holocaust survivors and many family members in Israel. I've been to Egypt, Jordan, Israel (many times), West Bank, etc.

It's a situation similar to the Native Americans who were forced off their land, and then make claims about traditional homeland. These issues are still being worked out, and except for the shootout at Wounded Knee, they are doing it peaceably.

The political problem is that Hamas will not recognize Israel, and in fact calls for its destruction and the death of Jews.

This really is not about God-given rights, but humanity dealing with the persecution of Jews, throughout European history. The blueprint for Israel being a refuge for Jews was worked out after WWI, but the Arabs wouldn't go for it. Again after WWII, a plan was put forward for a Israel and Palestine to be countries side by side - the Arabs wouldn't go for it.

Recently, Egypt worked out a cease fire, Hamas wouldn't go for it.

Both Jewish and Arab majorities want a peaceful two-state solution. The militants on both sides blow up the possibilities for peace.

The Palestinian people have to support a peace leader to stop the attacks. Same thing on the Israel side - need a peace leader who reflects the desire of the people to live in peace. Two-state is the solution, the problem to solve is to remove the fear and hate that keeps it from happening.
Comment Profile ImagePink
Comment #21 | Friday, Aug 1, 2014 at 5:50 pm
Thank you Jon, this is a subject on which we absolutely agree. The majority of citizens of both Palestine and Israel support two separate states. Hamas would like nothing better than to destroy Israel and kill every Jew residing there. If that isn't ethnic cleansing, I don't know what is. Historically every statement Jon makes is true. Look it up for yourself Mike, don't rely on slanted websites and propaganda to cloud your thinking. I have a close relative who is married to a Palestinian man, he has brought his entire family to America now (legally) to get them out of harms way. No one with any moral character likes Hamas (his words) but the people are terrified of them because they are fanatics, they murder their own people, women and children included, they have no conscience.

While I agree with your statement Jon, about how humanity has dealt with the persecution of Jews throughout history, I have to ad that I do believe that the Jews have a God-given right to the land they now possess, it was theirs before, and now, thanks be to God, it is theirs again (see both the Bible and the Talmud) and just for your information Mike, they are not leaving. Israel has shown admirable restraint when dealing with Hamas. They have the fire power available to them to take out Gaza if they wanted to. They have tried every avenue of peace, Hamas rejects them all. Israel will not ever again give in to bullies.

I say, lets all pray for peace, especially for the people of Gaza.
Comment Profile ImageMike W
Comment #22 | Sunday, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:37 am
Hi Jon, Thanks for responding, and you are right, there is much I don't know about Israel and the Middle East, being an outsider (not Jewish or Israeli) is why I listen to Israeli historians, such as Ilan Pappe, Jewish intellectuals, such as Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein, documentary film makers, such as John Pilger, and Israeli journalists such as Uri Avnery and the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, even though Pink insists I get my info from dubious sources, I think you will agree those mentioned above are anything but propaganda.
We need to keep in mind the poor quality of information we get in this country as well as the information we don't get, how often do we hear of the thousands of Israelis against the occupation and destruction of Palestinian lands and homes, and those in the Israeli military who go to jail rather than support such an immoral cause. You just don’t hear that sort of thing from the worlds western news outlets..
Pink, ask yourself, why the Israeli Military shelling of a U.N. refuge packed with terrified women, and children gets little if any press coverage in this country while an attempted shoe bomber received 24 hour media coverage for weeks. Hmmm??

I don't spend much tome on ancient history, especially 1,800 years ago, it’s all too iffy to be a basis for what we do or how we act today, especially how we treat others. Those folks, their families and their families, families have long turned to dust, not to mention the questionable accuracy of events which differ according to who’s talking. I think we can all get past the claim that God gave anything to anyone, as of today, it will not stand up in a court of law.
If I wanted to believe God gave anyone land then it would be the American Indians who were the original inhabitants of this land since our earliest history. Yet I don’t see them constantly reminding folks of the holocaust and Diaspora of their ancestors and I doubt they would, even if they did own the media, they have done what all the thousands of groups of people, who suffered Diasporas did, They moved on with their lives, putting down roots elsewhere, from what I have seen, holocaust survivors are the first to come out against the Israeli occupation and what the military is doing to the Palestinian people because they know first hand what the Palestinians are going through and wouldn't wish it on anyone, not for any reason.

What's important is what's happening today, and the only history worth considering, as far as I’m concerned, is maybe the last 150 years to include the 60 some odd years before 1948, and the last 60 years that many of us have some knowledge of. All I can find in the history of Palestine before the 40's is that since late 17th century Jews were only 5.3% of the total population of "Palestine" (and had been this percentage of the population (or less) for more than a thousand years). In 1946 the Jewish population was almost entirely comprised of recent immigrants (people who had been in the country less than twenty years).
Many in this group of recent immigrants considered themselves Zionists, publicly claiming that the "entire" land belonged to them because God gave it to them which, as you can imagine, made the non-Jews, Christian and Muslims, as well as older more established Jews a bit nervous and may explain the Arabs apprehensions about more Jewish immigrants you mentioned in your post, especially since these Jews claimed their right (as the chosen) to an ethnically pure state. It was never a secret, some are still saying it today and there will never be real peace talks because the "government" of Israel for the last 60 years, has been methodically erasing all evidence of Palestine and it's people, bulldozing neighborhoods, orchards and forcing the population into one tiny open air prison while building gated communities over Palestinians land and offering any Jew in the world $ 25,000 to live in these communities because they don't have enough real Israeli citizens willing to occupy them, as if that somehow makes it legal. (A friend's daughter recently got back from her free trip to Israel)

All the history I can find before 1948 showed the Palestinians (Christians, Muslims) and Jews all lived and worked together in harmony and prospered, until the advent (and radicalization) of the Zionist movement, which the Israeli government has shown time and time again they do not want a two state solution, they want it all and more times than not, invent rather lame justifications to destroy more infrastructure, orchards and murder more Palestinians, and I believe it is going to keep on happening until one of two things happens, they either kill or chase off the last remaining Palestinians or the people of the world stand up with the Israeli citizens against the occupation and put a stop to it. Hopefully it will be the latter and it seems to be happening now with the thousands of Jews in New York hitting the streets in protest of this latest slaughter of innocents by Israel, Bolivia has declared Israel to be a “terrorist state” and renounced a visa exemption agreement with the country in protest over the ongoing Israeli military offense in Gaza which already killed more than 1,300 innocents and left over 7,000 wounded. Western governments ignore Israel’s war crimes but not all Western peoples comply with this neglect. Many thousands of demonstrators against Israel have been in the streets in South America, London, Paris, Germany, Dublin, and Israel’s own Tel Aviv. http://rt.com/news/175860-london-gaza-protest-march/

After seven decades the Palestinian people remain unarmed. Hamas has a few ineffective weapons, but the people themselves are unarmed. Their response to the Israeli murders of their children, wives, husbands, brothers, sisters, parents, cousins, and friends is to cry or for some, to strap on bombs and commit revenge killings but even this is not the response of a warlike people.
In contrast, there are reports that Israeli civilians sit atop the hill overlooking Gaza on sofas that they bring along with their drinks and food, popcorn and watch in glee, clapping and cheering as Israeli bombs destroy Palestinians in their homes, children in their schools, and the ill in hospitals.
Here are photos from the New York Times of Israelis gathered to enjoy the slaughter of Palestinians.http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world/middleeast/israelis-watch-bombs-drop-on-gaza-from-front-row-seats.html?_r=1

If Hamas’ rockets were a threat, these Israelis would be dead

Jon, though we've only met briefly those few times at your place, I respect you and your opinions and freely offer you mine, as a friend, because I know you won’t forever judge me on this brief moment in time when we may seem to disagree. As you say, the Far Majority of Palestinians and Israelis want peace and none of this is their fault, what the heck was the British thinking when they brokered this deal? I don't think they thought it through at all, their apartheid in South Africa didn’t last and this won’t either. Never the less, too much has happened over the years while the world gave Israel the benefit of the doubt and looked away, too many homes, infrastructure and orchards destroyed, too many new developments on land that doesn't belong to Israel which makes any restructuring difficult to say the least.
We can take Pink’s advice and pray for peace, but I fear that alone will not do it if we harbor false information and take only the one narrative offered by western media, that has been our problem all along, (believing the TV) Comment 21 "Hamas would like nothing better than to destroy Israel and kill every Jew residing there. If that isn't ethnic cleansing, I don't know what is." Even if what you say was true, wanting something is not ethnic cleansing, forcefully moving folks off their land and building giant prison walls is..
Comment Continued : The comment above was written from the same location.
Post Continued
Comment Profile ImageMike W
Comment #23 | Sunday, Aug 3, 2014 at 10:50 am
“The conscious and intelligent manipulation of organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power. We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of.” Edward Bernays (If you don't know who he was, please Google his name)
Comment Profile ImagePink
Comment #24 | Sunday, Aug 3, 2014 at 5:27 pm
Nice try Mike, and I do appreciate your tenacity, but still you continue to blame Israel while turning a blind eye to the atrocities committed by Hamas. The entire Arab world is beginning to turn their backs on Hamas because they are becoming increasingly aware that Hamas does not represent the views of all Palestinians. As both Jon and I pointed out, the majority of citizens of both Israel and Palestine would approve of two separate states.

You are quick to point out the bombing of the shelter where Palestinian refugees were being housed, and it is a terrible, horrible thing, but the media has been all over it, not sure why you keep saying that it wasn't reported in the mainstream American press. Hamas was purposely using the area around that shelter to send rockets into Israel. Israel gave them 48 hours to cease and desist or they would return fire. They also advised Palestine to remove the refugees to another site. It is easy to say of Israel, "oh what a terrible thing to do" but what about all the hotel bombings and restaurant bombings in Israel perpetrated by terrorists? Remember the entire Jewish wedding party wiped out by a terrorist bomber a few years back? What did they do to deserve death on what should have been the happiest day of their lives? Mike, you say Israel shouldn't retaliate against Hamas because their weapons are more sophisticated than Hamas. What would you have them do? Ignore the rockets and the shelling? That is ridiculous. Israel has given in and given in again to demands made of them by the Arab nations, yet still there is no peace. That falls on the head of the Arab militants.

In closing I will say, of course you are right, the fact that God did indeed promise Israel that they would get their homeland back someday would, in all probability, not stand up in a court of law. My point is, that if God wants them there, there they will stay. I also do not see any possible chance of a court of law telling them that they have to leave. It is my firm belief that Israel isn't going anywhere, and if the middle east truly wants a peaceful solution to this situation, they had better get together and do something about Hamas.

By the way, my mother was of Native American decent on her mothers side, and while I show my Irish American roots more than anything else, I am very proud of the fact that I have Native American blood. I believe that the Native American people were royally done wrong by the government, and that is why I am so happy to see that the casinos are bringing them so much wealth and prosperity. It is about time!!
Comment Profile ImageMike W
Comment #25 | Monday, Aug 4, 2014 at 12:10 pm
The difference between us Pink is I was where you're at on this issue for many years, but now I'm not. So until you take some time to really investigate and consider the other side of any issue, you are pretty much in the dark try hearing what the following have to say on the issue.
You obviously didn't listen to what these people have to say ~ Ilan Pappe, Jewish intellectuals, such as Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein, documentary film makers, such as John Pilger, and Israeli journalists such as Uri Avnery and the Israeli newspaper Haaretz.

Miko Peled was born in Jersusalem into a famous and influential Israeli Zionist family. His father was a famous General in the Israeli Army, of which Miko also served his time. When Miko's niece was killed by Palestinian suicide bombers, you may have expected the family to put Palestinians at fault, but surprisingly they blamed the state of Israel, and their violent torturing and persecution for driving people to such sadness that they would take their own lives.
Just take in the first 15 minutes of this video, if you can't at least do that then there is no sense discussing it with you ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ
Comment Profile ImagePink
Comment #26 | Monday, Aug 4, 2014 at 12:54 pm
Thanks Mike. I have actually read Chomsky, also Naomi Wolf. I have never heard of Mr. Finkelstein, though I have a dear friend by the name of Finkelstein and she is a staunch supporter of Israel (although she does not consider herself a Zionist) as far as Miko Peled is concerned, I'm not that impressed, he is not the first son to turn against the teachings of his father.

Once again Mike I have to impress upon you, Israel isn't going anywhere. You have said what happened 1800 years ago is of no importance, that may be true, but what happened before 1948 is no longer of any importance either. It is 2014. The leaders of Israel and the Arab countries need too, have too, find a way to live together in peace, because the only alternative is eternal war.

I have asked you several times Mike, how you can condemn Israel without condemning Hamas. Hamas are Fascists, they are also zealots without a conscience. They kill anyone who stands in their way, even their own people. They are terrorists! I have come to the conclusion that because you refuse to condemn them, that it must mean that you support them. That would make me sad, but it also helps me to understand the position you have taken.
Comment Profile ImageMike W
Comment #27 | Tuesday, Aug 5, 2014 at 11:31 am
Comment 26 " I, I, I'm, I am, I have, I have, I have, I. I .. I
What a waste of my time and energy Pink, how could you possibly understand my position when you will not take a few minutes to review and consider the links and information provided that will explain my position, instead of brushing it off as immaterial, not worthy of your consideration. What are you afraid of? It is obvious you did not listen to Miko Peled's story or you would not have made the following ridiculous comment "as far as Miko Peled is concerned, I'm not that impressed, he is not the first son to turn against the teachings of his father."
Yikes!! He and his father were in total agreement, he was in the military against the Arabs, the son of a General, his beautiful niece was killed by a suicide bomber yet he did a complete 180° with the help of a group of compassionate Palestinians while living right here in San Diego. His talk and the Q&A is very interesting and informative.

From a very inspirational Peter Tosh song ~ "The lips of the righteous teaches many while fools die for want of wisdom." taken from Proverbs 10:21
Comment Profile ImagePink
Comment #28 | Tuesday, Aug 5, 2014 at 4:46 pm
Mike, I'm starting to get a tad annoyed at your sanctimonious attitude. I actually do know some Palestinians on a personal basis. I have heard their stories, my cousins husband in particular. His family lost all of their property in the late 40s when Israel became a state. He is a good guy, I like him. I understand the frustration and anger that his parents felt! I have studied BOTH sides of this issue, and while I believe that Israel has made some grave judgements in error on occasion, I still, FIRMLY, believe that they have a right to the lands they now occupy. I'm not going to change my mind on that, no matter how many links to pro Palestinian web sites you throw at me. My mind isn't closed, but it is made up. I know the issues, I understand the arguments, both pro and con, but as I have said, repeatedly, Israel isn't going anywhere. Do you honestly believe that they will just, after 60+ years, turn tail and run? Seriously? If Hamas doesn't agree to peace, there will be no peace. The killing, on both sides, will continue and escalate.

I'm sorry you don't like to know anything about me Mike, and that it makes you so infuriated when I explain, by listing my qualifications and my ideals, how I feel about a subject, but sometimes what people are is why they feel the way they do!! It isn't being self centered, it is being informative, you obviously have a very short fuse. I know almost nothing about you personally, what makes you so angry? Why do you believe that you are the only one who is right all the time? Even your friend Jon Monday doesn't agree with you on this particular issue. By the way, we know all about Jon, I have come to like him for himself as a person, even though I rarely agree with him politically, I find that he is a well spoken, interesting man with a strong sense of fairness and compassion, why is it okay for him to explain himself but not okay for me? I don't believe that you have an open mind at all Mike.

I find it interesting that you would make that particular quote from the Proverbs, but I will toss it right back at ya. Have a nice day.
Comment Profile ImageMike W
Comment #29 | Thursday, Aug 14, 2014 at 4:20 pm
For those who don't mind seeing and evaluating views other than their own, maybe supporting Israel is speaking out against the current regime ~

July 29th, at Leinster House, Dublin, Ireland, in front of Ireland’s Houses of the Oireachtas, which is their senate and congress, and was delivered by Senator David Patrick Bernard Norris.......... . I am not anti-Israeli; I am not anti-Semitic. I supported the State of Israel. However, in the 40 years that I have known the State of Israel and sometimes had a home there, I have seen it completely change. It changed from a left wing, socially directed country to an extreme right-wing regime that is behaving in the most criminal fashion, defying the world and unscrupulously using the Holocaust to justify what they are doing.

Now somebody with their thinking cap on might come up with the idea that the very same thing may have happened happened right here in the good US of A, maybe even simultaneously...?
Comment Profile ImagePaul
Comment #30 | Monday, Aug 18, 2014 at 9:59 pm
We get it Mike W. Left wing imperialism good, right wing imperialism bad.

Mike, you continually complain that those of us who disagree with you have "closed minds" and need to "broaden our horizons" yet you refuse to even consider any view points other than your own. You get all upset because Pink explains her positions and viewpoints based on her own research and life experiences by insinuating that she is self centered. I think that you are the one who is self centered Mike. If we don't go to your websites, slap our foreheads, and say "wow now I get it" we are not being objective. Perhaps if you stopped relying on the opinions of others and actually came outside, looked around, and made some decisions based on fact, rather than fiction, you would be better off.

Try coming up with ideas based on knowledge and less on quotes from obscure individuals and you might do better. Do you really believe that Israel should just ignore Hamas? What planet do you inhabit? Do you love and defend ISIS as well?
Comment Profile ImageMike W
Comment #31 | Wednesday, Aug 20, 2014 at 3:16 pm
Paul, As much as you would like to believe it, contrary to your beliefs about me, the views I offer are my own from my own experiences, the quotes and articles I offer are backup because of the hostile environment here in Tea Partilandia.
Now about poor abused Pink, I called her out for responding to a video she "acted like" she watched but obviously didn't really watch, because if she really did there is no way she would make the statement she did. It is well known that Pink and a few others here would not take the time to watch a video or read an article contrary to their current beliefs, especially if offered by an accused card carrying democrat, liberal, socialist, communist, pot smoking Hippie who doesn't believe in the god of the Bible, Tora, Quran, Book of Mormon or any of the others. I do my own thing on that issue..

"If we don't go to your websites, slap our foreheads, and say "wow now I get it"

Dude, have you ever thought of the possibility that some people are just stubborn? Or afraid to find that chink in their armor that might unravel years of misconception.
Paul, As much as you would like to believe it, contrary to your beliefs about me, the views I offer are my own from my own experiences, The quotes and articles I offer are backup because of the hostile environment here in Tea Partilandia.
Now about poor abused Pink, I called her out for responding to a video she "acted like" she watched but obviously didn't really watch, because if she really did there is no way she would make the statement she did. It is well known that Pink and a few others here would not take the time to watch a video or read an article that was contrary to their current beliefs, especially if offered by an accused card carrying democrat, liberal, socialist, communist, pot smoking Hippie who doesn't believe in the god of the Bible, Tora, Quran, Book of Mormon or any of the others, only because I've been there, done that.

"If we don't go to your websites, slap our foreheads, and say "wow now I get it"

Dude, have you ever thought of the possibility that some people are just stubborn? Or afraid to find that chink in their armor that might unravel years of misconception.
I assure you that Miko Peled, Ilan Pappe, Jewish intellectuals, such as Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein, documentary film makers, such as John Pilger, and Israeli journalists such as Uri Avnery and the Israeli newspaper Haaretz are anything but obscure to those who are out there looking and not just relying on Fox and the mainstream media, which we all know by now is pretty much fake.
If you really think my ideas are not based on fact then why don't you set me straight instead of just making accusations? Try reading and or watching what I offer and make suggestions based on that instead of telling me how bad I am...

PS I think it was Senator Norris who said Israel invented Hamas, they need it for an excuse to annihilate a people, just look how they used the murder of those kids to start a war when they knew full well Hamas has nothing to do with it. M( the name of a computer program, not a group) My research says ISIS was trained and financed by our CIA as was so called Al Qaeda and the Taliban, ISIS is our new boogy man because the term terrorist or fear tactics about the Taliban coming to get us just aren't working as well to scare the populace into more useless war as it used to, ISIS will be used by the idiots who run our despicable foreign policies to get us back in Iraq so they can disrupt the world even more than they already have.
While you're at it, do Tell me why you think People like Paul Wolfowitz are uniquely qualified to decide and plan our foreign policies on into the future? Shouldn't we have a say in that?
Comment Profile ImageTerry Leather
Comment #32 | Thursday, Aug 21, 2014 at 12:59 pm
Apparently no one has more wisdom to bestow upon us than white Hippies in their Sixties.

Do you want to explain Churchill's role in the Kennedy assassination now?

#ISISBeNice

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