Increased Noise Levels on Camp Pendleton


Wednesday, January 20th, 2010
Issue 03, Volume 14.
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CAMP PENDLETON – Beginning Tuesday, Camp Pendleton artillery units will be conducting 24-hour, live-fire exercises, firing high-explosive munitions into the Whiskey and Zulu impact areas. Twenty-four hour exercises will last through Friday, Jan. 29.


 

145 comments

Comment Profile ImageMargaret Singleton Oleary
Comment #1 | Friday, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:10 pm
When we bought our house, we were warned about noises possible from Camp Pendleton.
But it is a hidden cost of fighting two wars. Soldiers need to be trained. but it is a serious annoyance. I think that live fire training should be limited to certain, less obtrusive time periods and that the government should move more of the live fire training to desert bases far from heavy concentrations of civilians
Comment Profile ImageGeorge Martin
Comment #2 | Friday, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:14 pm
That's just Great! Why can't they conduct their live fire exercises at Fort Irwin's Army Base, so they won't set the place on fire again. Rain next week.
Comment Profile ImageJason
Comment #3 | Friday, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:33 pm
Margaret, was your house built before or after the base? People live next to the desert bases too.

This reminds me of when people move near airports and complain about airplane noise.

To me it isn’t an annoyance it is the beautiful sound of freedom
Comment Profile ImageVeteran
Comment #4 | Friday, Jan 15, 2010 at 1:55 pm
Odd isn't it, that people will complain about this, however they will let their dogs bark all of the time, or run their dirt bikes in the front yard. Seriously, it is part of the neighborhood - and part of being an American. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything.
Comment Profile ImageSheryl
Comment #5 | Friday, Jan 15, 2010 at 1:55 pm
I love the sound of shelling, it makes me feel safe.
And it reminds me of lightening and thunder which I miss after moving here from Georgia.
Semper Fi
Comment Profile Imagejas
Comment #6 | Friday, Jan 15, 2010 at 1:55 pm
Ahhhhhh the Sounds of Freedom are music to my ears...Semper Fi
Comment Profile ImageLOVE FALLBROOK
Comment #7 | Friday, Jan 15, 2010 at 1:56 pm
AMEN JASON!!
Comment Profile ImageLeo
Comment #8 | Friday, Jan 15, 2010 at 1:56 pm
Pendelton is unique as the environement is very similer to where they are fighting now. If you dont like the sound of freedom move to China, Or Iran, Or some other dictator led country
Comment Profile ImageGeorge Martin
Comment #9 | Friday, Jan 15, 2010 at 1:56 pm
Jason, I agree with Margaret. Why don't you go watch a Good War Movie and turn the volume way up, like I do.

I get Military hilos that fly right over my home in Fallbrook for no other reason than the Gorgeous View. They are way off their flight pattern.

Oh, by the way I was a Tank Commander US Army 1965. There's nothing like a Good Solid Noisy Tank!
Comment Profile ImageTom Rader
Comment #10 | Friday, Jan 15, 2010 at 4:55 pm
I agree with Veteran and Jason.

Dogs barking are more of a nuisance. And i dont hate dog's i have 3
Comment Profile ImagePink
Comment #11 | Friday, Jan 15, 2010 at 5:34 pm
I have lived in Fallbrook for almost 40 years and I have never been bothered by the noise from Camp Pendleton. I knew the base was there when I moved here.
Comment Profile ImageTroop Supporter
Comment #12 | Friday, Jan 15, 2010 at 5:34 pm
I'm sorry our troops have to train for war on their base. Geez.. They train at all hours so they get the feel of being at war. How do you think our poor soldiers feel when they want to take the few cat naps they get while fighting overseas with non stop bombs and gun fire. At least we have a nice bed, showers and good food. God bless our troops overseas and at home!!!
Comment Profile Imagematt
Comment #13 | Friday, Jan 15, 2010 at 6:32 pm
Camp Pendleton has a very unique landscape and over 1200 sc miles of diverse terrain and conditions so it is a very good training ground for live fire .

I would rather listen to shelling and bombs than illegal's playing there crap mariachi music all over town now thats annoying.
Comment Profile Imageglasslover
Comment #14 | Friday, Jan 15, 2010 at 11:08 pm
It is all a waste ,especially in our time of economic disaster .
Comment Profile Imagejoemamma42
Comment #15 | Friday, Jan 15, 2010 at 11:09 pm
Haha Matt that's funny about the mariachi music.

Whenever I hear the shelling I am grateful that I don't live somewhere that the shelling is real and people are dieing. Yes it can be a little annoying at 3 am but what ever, I chose to move here, it's not like I didn't know there was a base just 100 yards away.
Comment Profile ImageOld WAC
Comment #16 | Friday, Jan 15, 2010 at 11:09 pm
I thank God every single day for living in the United States of America and grew up between two Air Force Bases that had planes taking off every 6-8 minutes. Thank God for those sounds of FREEDOM that include planes, ARTILLERY, explosives and any vehicles necessary to keep our FREEDOM intact.
One Old Freedom Loving WAC
Comment Profile ImageRedneck Bill
Comment #17 | Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 at 7:02 pm
Clearly the noise from Camp Pendleton means something different to each of us.

But whatever your feelings about the noise, I guarandamtee that if it was your kid up there in that helo, or on the range firing artillery, you would want them to get as much preparation as possible in all different conditions, in the hope that when they deploy they would be trained well enough to come home safe.

If you can't understand that, there is something wrong with you.
Comment Profile Imagenancysongwriter
Comment #18 | Saturday, Jan 16, 2010 at 7:37 pm
I am amazed to here the sounds of those men and women training to protect me and as often as I can I buy them a starbucks if I see one in line. Please do the same. They would die or experience great pain for us without ever meeting us. Let this be the end of any more complaints about "noise from C.P." Be ashamed. Change your thinking.
Comment Profile Imageray
Comment #19 | Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 at 8:52 am
i like it
Comment Profile ImageFallbrookian
Comment #20 | Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 at 8:52 am
The sounds of the training at the base are comforting. The base was here long before I arrived and I knew that when I moved in. I have to agree with Jason and Matt. By the way Matt, you hit the nail on the head, nothing is more annoying than mariachi music, which all but makes my ears bleed.
Comment Profile Imageslym
Comment #21 | Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 at 8:52 am
Redneck Bill - Well said!
Comment Profile Imagefallbrookresident
Comment #22 | Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 at 8:52 am
They should go to 29 palms where they belong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Comment Profile ImageNavy Vet
Comment #23 | Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 at 8:52 am
I wish that all of the lilly livered cowards would pack up and move to a place where there isn't any noise. God bless our soldiers.
Comment Profile ImageTony
Comment #24 | Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 at 10:18 am
3000 people died on September 11, 2001 that didn't get a chance to complain about noise. They were murdered by methodical religious/political radicals because our Country is not Muslim. One of those murdered was a pilot of one of the planes used to hit the Twin Towers, who lived here in Fallbrook, remember? I bet he would love to be alive today to answer your complaint personally, but let me do it for him... Make no mistake about it, if the Muslim radicals could, they would kill you on the spot and smile while doing it. What I would submit to Margaret and George is that those wondeful kids over on the base training, along with all of our Armed Forces, are the very reason we haven't had another 911 as we have taken the fight to them, on their soil. If a little noise is the price I pay so my son is safe from attack, I am ok with that...my question is, are you? Our Country was born in conflict to free itself from political and religious oppression. Today our Country is in conflict again to free itself from religious terrorism. We live in a bubble here in Fallbrook, immune from most of the strife in the world...which looks really bad on TV, but its not here so out of sight, out of mind, right? Just remember that those kids over there training have to go live in that strife to protect our little bubble of Fallbrook....think about it.
Comment Profile ImageRedneck Bill
Comment #25 | Sunday, Jan 17, 2010 at 8:28 pm
To whomever: I love mariachi music. Have you ever listened to "Canciones para mi Padres"? But that's another subject.

My son is a Marine. Yes, he volunteered. They all did. And if you want to complain, I know he is OK with that. But I also know that he is doing what he thinks is the right thing to do, along with his fellow Marines. And while I hate to even think about it, he is willing to give his life, as they all are.

For the love of our Lord, when these kids are willing to give everything, I would like to have you help me understand how you can complain about the noise they make preparing to go fight for US, you and me.

Doesn't it seem a little selfish to complain about their noise when they are risking everything?
Comment Profile ImageFallbrookian
Comment #26 | Monday, Jan 18, 2010 at 7:08 am
#22 Fallbrookresident:
They belong at Camp Pendleton~PERIOD.

#25 Redneck Bill:
I am glad to hear someone likes that horrible music. I don't know which is worse, or makes my ears bleed more, mariachi music or German polkas. Both equally bad and sound almost identical. Just plain annoying.
Comment Profile ImageRedStar
Comment #27 | Monday, Jan 18, 2010 at 7:08 am
Can't they use quieter ammunition, haven't these boys ever heard of silencers? I need sleep.
Comment Profile Imagefallbrook mama
Comment #28 | Monday, Jan 18, 2010 at 10:28 am
What bothers me more is the yappy dog across the street and the owner that calls for his cat at all hours: "Fluffy, Oh Fluffy!". That man can be heard for blocks. Let the marines do their job people!
Comment Profile ImageELLIE
Comment #29 | Monday, Jan 18, 2010 at 3:41 pm
HERE WE GO AGAIN!! People complaining about Camp Pendleton exercises! Everyone who purchased a home in the Fallbrook area was told of the occurence, so you have under no circumstances a right to complain...if you don't want to hear the noise or it is 'annoying' to you - MOVE!

#1 - MARGARET: Ignorance is an understatement regarding your comment:

"I think that live fire training should be limited to certain, less obtrusive time periods and that the government should move more of the live fire training to desert bases far from heavy concentrations of civilians" - ARE YOU SERIOUS?? What less obtrusive time periods do you suggest that ignoramous people have not complained about? And which desert bases do you suggest that does not have a concentration of civilians?

We have lived in Fallbrook for 9 years and our development backs to Pendleton. Yes, we were told about the noise, Yes, our windows rattle, Yes, we are awakened by the exercises, Yes, at times our house receives a little jolt, Yes, we are under the flight path of the helicopters and planes, but let me tell you this: I would rather hear the noise, be awakened at night, feel the jolts and see the choppers and planes than not! All the above is representative of us living in FREEDOM, not having to FEAR being MURDERED for being an American or our religious beliefs. Everytime a chopper goes overhead, I go outside, wave to them, say 'God bless and come home safe'. Everyday, I pray we remain a free country...maybe more prayer is needed and less complaining!

Margaret and the others who are complaining, you may want to try this - it just might give you some understanding and make you a more compassionate person who appreciates the soldiers fighting for your right to be here. GROW UP PEOPLE!

SEMPER FI!! no, I'm not a Marine wife, mother or daughter - I just believe in our military, as all should! And we PROUDLY fly the flag IN OUR FRONT YARD 24/7 - 25 feet above the ground in all it's glory, illuminated at night, for all to see!
Comment Profile ImageBrenda
Comment #30 | Monday, Jan 18, 2010 at 3:42 pm
The Marines have to do there training at all hours of the night and day. If you don't like the noise you should never have moved next to a military base
Comment Profile ImageVicky
Comment #31 | Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 at 1:36 pm
I recently moved to Fallbrook, and I was told about the training exercises. The first time I herd them, I felt a peace like none I have ever felt. I knew that there were men and women training to keep us safe, out of harms way by putting their own lives on the line. When they leave American soil to travel to a war torn country, I want to know they are going there as prepared as they can possibly be. So let the games begin, the helicopters, the gun fire what ever it takes to keep all of us safe. In the light of the Haiti Earthquake, we should be grateful we live in a country as blessed as the USA instead of complaining about the training going on at Camp Pendleton get down on your knees and say a prayer for are armed forces and the wonderful country....
Comment Profile ImageYeah, but...
Comment #32 | Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 at 4:31 pm
...do they REALLY need to fly the helicopters so low in residential areas NOT near Pendleton? It's not the guns and bombing that make me want to scream, it's the helicopters. They come down SO low in our neighborhood that it is pointless to try and keep any pictures straight on the wall. Every night between 5:30 and 6:30, there they are. I thought they weren't supposed to descend until they were almost back to the air station. silly me...
Comment Profile ImageNAVY WIFE
Comment #33 | Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 at 4:31 pm
IF YOU ARE GOING TO MOVE TO A CITY THAT IS IN THE PROXIMITY TO A MILITARY BASE THEN YOU DON'T NEED TO BE A GENIOUS TO KNOW THAT THERE IS TRAINNING INVOLVED. THERE ARE MEN AND WOMEN SACRIFICING THEIR LIFE AND TIME WITH THEIR FAMILY TO PROTECT OUR COUNTRY AND OUR FREEDOM. HOW ABOUT INSTEAD OF COMPLAINING ABOUT THIS "NOISE" WE SHOULD BE PRAISING THEM FOR THEIR BRAVERY AND HEROISM.
STOP COMPLAINING AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT THEN MOVE!!!! WE DON'T NEED RESIDENTS LIKE YOU IN FALLBROOK!
Comment Profile ImageOld WAC
Comment #34 | Tuesday, Jan 19, 2010 at 8:38 pm
I have a tip for you "Yeah but," to keep your pictures straight on the walls, despite the near daily tiny earthquakes (we live in an active Zone 3 earthquake zone-no one probably told you THAT huh?), and the helicopters,: you can get some yellow poster tacking by 3M look for it the isle with office supplies.
IMPROVISE-ADAPT-OVERCOME-SUCCEED!
Comment Profile ImageJasonB
Comment #35 | Wednesday, Jan 20, 2010 at 5:26 am
A lot of military fanatics and religious nut-jobs in this town. Weird combination. Just to clarify for those willfully ignorant of it... the city/town of Fallbrook was here first, that is before the base was installed in the 1940's. However, for those of us born after WWII and currently living here, this would hardly make any difference. Everyone has the right to complain and speak what they will. Military bases need to exist. Most are put in strategic locations. For instance, Camp Pendleton was used heavily during the Korean and Vietnam Wars as well as WWII. There are no easy solutions to solving live fire sound annoyances for locals, specially at the rate people are expanding into rural areas such as Fallbrook. Perhaps more simulated exercises need to be thought up and implemented. If I were a soldier however, I would be worried if the simulations were going to be enough for what I may encounter on the battlefield. Having a base located near our nuclear facility seems like a good idea, doesn't it? Anyway, in my opinion, it also prevents industrial expansion from consuming the last, somewhat unspoiled country we have in Southwestern California. Some area is sacrificed to complete ruin by the bombs, yes, but a fairly small amount in comparison to the total area it occupies. To have so much land available in the future will be key for many generations I imagine. For me, I get some comfort in thinking that if there were ever an emergency I hope having a base so close would be an advantage for those living nearby and seeking assistance. I'm glad it doesn't happen more often though. As many others have stated, our troops need the best training for whatever they will find themselves in, and I for one am glad to know they are receiving it.
Comment Profile ImageYes, but
Comment #36 | Wednesday, Jan 20, 2010 at 5:26 am
(one more thing)
Margaret Singleton Oleary has a point. There are thousands of areas in the US that are much less populated than the San Diego County area. In some areas there is nary a house around for 50 miles or much farther. Live fire training would annoy many fewer citizens if it was done in those areas. But the military does not care about making things quieter here. Their thinking is "We Rule", PERIOD. And those other areas may not offer nearly as much fun and entertainment as we have in San Diego County. And no beaches.
PS-
With other concerned citizens I met with the military in Washington 15 years ago to discuss trying to cut down some of the helicopter noise. Mostly, the military didn't care what we said. The military is a behemoth that knows it does not have to give an inch. And mostly, it doesn't.
Comment Profile Imageusmcret
Comment #37 | Wednesday, Jan 20, 2010 at 5:27 am
For those that do not understand; make a call to the base PAO, request that you be given a tour of the camp; tell them you are concerned about how to dampen the noise impact - look at the howizters; see the Marines train - then, I am willing to bet, you will change your mind about complaining.
Comment Profile ImageYes, but
Comment #38 | Wednesday, Jan 20, 2010 at 5:27 am
I respect the bravery of the marines, but what I do not respect is how they ignore legitimate complaints about noise levels that can be reduced. Helicopters do fly routes directly over residential areas, even when less populated routes are available. Helicopters do fly unnecessarily low. The military tries to tell us that they consider our complaints, but they do not. They act like bullies more than they cooperate. We pay their salaries. We are THEIR bosses, not the opposite. Yet they do as they please. Again, while they do protect us, in all other ways that I can see, they sneer at us. Power corrupts.
Comment Profile ImageSound of Freedom
Comment #39 | Wednesday, Jan 20, 2010 at 7:59 pm
Bring on the thunder jarheads. Semper Fi.
Comment Profile Imageusmcret
Comment #40 | Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 at 8:51 am
Yes But (#38) - oh come on- "They act like bullies"? Try going to, oh say, ROK (a democracy) much less Iraq (before the fall of Sadaam), most South American countries, even some of Europe - there you will see military bullies. And you, an individual are not the "boss" - the people elect the government - "they" are the "boss". Please explain how the military, the USMC in particular, has "sneered" at you and what corruption you see from their "power".
Comment Profile ImageVeteran
Comment #41 | Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 at 9:38 am
Yea but, et al...having 22 years of Navy helicopter flying experience (all based from San Diego), you might be surprised to hear that...
1. There are "course rules" (submitted by the base, approved by the FAA) for military helicopters operating from any/all San Diego bases, prescribing routes - speeds and altitudes for safely transiting the area. The helicopter crews have little room for deviation from this. Your niose complaints DO get heard, tracked, and if sufficiently justified the course rules will be changed. I have seen this happen several times all over San Diego and Imperial counties in the last 22 years.

2. Our military helicopters operate IN SUPPORT OF troops on the ground. If you have followed the GWOT you will see that much of this occurs in an urban environment. There is absolutely no substitute for realistic training, however let me guarantee that the "low level" flights that pass your houses are only in transit and those flight crews are gaining experience in terrain/wires avoidance. It again is part of the experience of being an American...and a sight better than hearing "Call to prayer" from mosque's minaret six times a day.

3. Folks, in case you forgot, the Marines are an AMPHIBIOUS FORCE (that means "from the water" for the red-necks). So #22 fallbrookresident and others who think 29 Palms is the answer can try to reason out why CP is by the ocean.

If you want to argue for argument's sake...whatever. These Marines are doing their jobs the very best they can, the least we can do is try to show a little appreciation.

Thanks.
Comment Profile ImageYeah, but...
Comment #42 | Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 at 11:47 am
Veteran, thanks for the explanation. I never knew they were gaining "terrain/wires avoidance" experience, and now it makes sense and the noise is warranted if that is the case. I lived on CP for seven years as the wife of an Amtracker, and never experienced noise levels (even living for three of those years right near one of the ranges) as I have living outside the Naval weapons station in Fallbrook.
Comment Profile ImageYes, but
Comment #43 | Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 at 2:04 pm
usmcret: You think like many government employees think. The constitution basically says that the people rule, not the government. Being elected does not mean you can do whatever you want.
Veteran: I do appreciate the Marines and the military. I'm a conservative (Republican) and anything but anti-military. However, it seems a contradiction to fight for America overseas, but as an organization not respect the individual American citizen's desire for a pleasant lifestyle here at home.
Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #44 | Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 at 9:09 pm
Veteran correctly points out that amphibious force argument. That's why they patrol the beaches.

They need more experience with beaches populated with bikini clad women and surfer dudes.

There's just one problem: Afghanistan is landlocked. No beach. Imagine their surprise when they figure that out.

Perhaps focusing on the problems inherent in this war and not imagining the trench warfare of WWI would be a wiser course.

Then again Veteran should know more than most people how the military operates. :)
Comment Continued : The comment above was written from the same location.
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Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #45 | Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 at 9:10 pm
As I understand it, the Pendleton area was basically stolen from the landowner, who did not want to sell.

He was forced to take a bad deal like so many faced with eminent domain.

Now it's evolved into taking a person's land to build a Walmart or a new mall or new apartment buildings.

When I hear the bombing, I hear the sound of my tax money being blown out the end of a 12 gauge. Lots of fun, but no real pop. I hope we get smarter some day... soon.
Comment Profile ImageFallbrook Resident
Comment #46 | Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 at 10:36 pm
I don't believe it is true that it was basically stolen from the landowner. I think they were paid about $200K for it, which was a lot of money back then. However, I agree that eminent domain to put a walmart is an abuse of property rights.
Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #47 | Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 at 10:38 pm
Dear news staff,
Please consider keeping stories like this (that get unusual attention from readers) on the front rotation an extra week before archiving them.
thanks for the consideration.
Comment Profile ImageNews Staff
Comment #48 | Thursday, Jan 21, 2010 at 10:39 pm
Good idea. thank you.
Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #49 | Friday, Jan 22, 2010 at 10:54 am
Fallbrook resident
$200k?

I love how you work with numbers. Just pull one out of your hat and make it your opinion. Of course, that number is completely wrong.

Not only do you write that with no regard for the truth, you add in your appraisal of the market conditions of the time. You sound a bit like any television pundit.

How can you have a legitimate opinion without facts about how the deal went down? And the deal was structured different than what you now think.

I could give you the facts, but I don't want to confuse you.
Comment Continued : The comment above was written from the same location.
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Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #50 | Friday, Jan 22, 2010 at 10:54 am
Dear news staff,

you are welcome.
Comment Profile ImageVeteran
Comment #51 | Friday, Jan 22, 2010 at 10:56 am
...points taken, however...

Yes, but...If there is any "entity" in the entire world that respects the RIGHTS of American citizens - it is the military. You rights are the very reason we do what we do. The DESIRES of Americans are a seperate (varied and fickle) thing. We can't possibly please everyone and complete the mission assigned to us by our elected leaders. The military does bend the way it operates to submit to the will of the MAJORITY of the public. Here is an example : http://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/Wildlife/2008/1112/supreme-court-lifts-limits-on-navy-sonar-near-whales
For years the Navy completely changed it's SONAR usage to conform to the 9th circuit court's decision on animal protection. The Supreme court overturned the decision in 2008, but believe me - EVERYTHING abour SONAR changed for a few years because it was the will of (a minority) of the people. It happens...at the speed of government :)

True partiot...find me one "Red blooded" american who would not enjoy patrolling bikini clad beaches, military or not. You are RIGHT, Afghanistan is a land locked country, Haiti on the other hand is not, and our Marines and Sailors are fighting to help people there, in a "from the sea" environment. http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/01/19/marines-face-tough-task-in-haiti/

Eminent domain is often incredibly unfair to the person/people who end up losing their land, however I doubt that you feel any guilt driving over the roads claimed through eminent domain, or flying in and out of Linbergh field. A great example of how it pays is through the land developed by Mayor Susan Golding in the 90's when Naval Training Center, and Recruit Training Center San Diego closed down. The land (and very prime bay front land) was returned to the city. Maybe NAS Barbers Point Hi, which when closed was turned back over to the state of Hawaii.

The military may seem like a monsterous, powerfull and enigmatic machine to a lot of citizens. They are entitled to their opinions about it - however they came to have them. An open mind, a little research and a realization that these fighting men and women are the same people you grew up with and have the same values as you and I is all we ask of you. No ticker-tape parades or thanks needed, we do it because we love our families, our jobs and our countries.
Comment Profile ImageRedneck Bill
Comment #52 | Friday, Jan 22, 2010 at 12:35 pm
True Patriot,

Because you are a true patriot, I know you'll understand this.

As has been pointed out, Marines are designed to be an amphibious force, but because they don't have the word "can't" in their vocabulary, they do whatever they are asked to do. Afghanistan is a Third World armpit, and nobody WANTS to be there. What Marines in particular, and our military in general want is to accomplish the task they are given.

Part of the problem our military faced was being asked to fight an unnecessary war in Iraq. Because our military was stretched so thin, there are forces trained and designed to do specific jobs doing something else. For example, I know of a submarine officer, on whom millions of dollars were spent in training at nuke power school, taken off his boat and sent to Iraq to hunt IED's.

The point is, the guys here at Camp Pendleton are simply doing what they are told to do. That includes where to fly and what to shoot. If it so happens that Southern California is a "nice" place and they see hot babes in bikinis, well, that's a good thing. I think they deserve that. It doesn't make up for what they deal with both here and abroad, but if it brightens their day just a little that's a very good thing.
Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #53 | Friday, Jan 22, 2010 at 3:24 pm
Redneck Bill,

I read your post twice and didn't find anything to disagree with. Perhaps I missed something?

In addition, I think you make some good points.

I don't, for a second, blame soldiers for bad decisions that were not up to them to make.

And it truly pisses me off to hear your submarine officer story. It's the kind of thing that is going to bankrupt us as a nation, wasting taxpayer money.

I don't doubt they get a good education at West Point etc, but I do doubt that they learn anything. These mistakes have been made for centuries.

To Veteran,
more to come.
Comment Profile ImageUSMCRET
Comment #54 | Friday, Jan 22, 2010 at 5:31 pm
Camp Pendleton cost the government in excess of $4million, not $200,000. Next – when it was built it WAS in the middle of no-where. Oceanside grew up BECAUSE of Camp Pendleton. There was a nice buffer between the Camp and the civilian houses, but it has built up to the fence; same with Fallbrook. Look at other “in the middle of no-where” places – i.e. Yuma Az. No matter where the military goes, the area around it builds up; then people complain
Yes but – you are right- being elected does not mean you can do whatever you want; however the government (tries) to do the most good for the most people – you stated “you were the boss”. You are not – you elect the boss.
Also, still waiting for one example from you as to how the military “sneers” and “bullies” you. Being where they are is because the Government- the one you (and I) elected told them to be there.
Comment Profile ImageRedneck Bill
Comment #55 | Friday, Jan 22, 2010 at 7:42 pm
True Patriot,

I probably have a different view of the military than you. I know what the Mids and Cadets are taught at our Academies. Whether an officer takes those things to heart is entirely up to him, but the institution makes the effort to instill values.

One of the saddest stories I can think of in our history is that of Colin Powell. He and his fellow junior officers watched what happened in Vietnam, and vowed they would not make the same mistake when they were in a position of authority. And yet when push came to shove, General Powell chose his career over his country.

I personally hold our military in high regard, but I recognize it's inherent flaws. I hope I know what I would do were I in a position to chose my country's well being over my own, but I guess none of us know that until we're there. Our military leaders have invested a lot by the time they reach decision maker status, and they are trained to be team players. I don't always agree with their decision to "go along", but I understand it.

What I do know from seeing much of the world is that with all the flaws of our military and our country, ours is the greatest country on earth. We fall short of the ideal, but we are closer than any other major country.
Comment Profile ImageELLIE
Comment #56 | Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 at 9:11 am
WOW!!! I LOVE how this article has brought out so many opinions and not gone off track as so many do.

I agree, The Village News should keep stories generating a great response up front and current.

It makes me proud so many people support our men and women in the military and the 'war games'. Yes, we absolutely live in the best country in the world, even with our economic downturn and corrupt powers that be.

To all that have or had military experiences, thank you, thank you, thank you, for your commitment and expertise in educating us about current matters. You are all heroes in my book!
Comment Profile Imagemom of lots
Comment #57 | Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 at 9:11 am
True Patriot- you would appreciate a political comic a young kid I know made- it is a picture of a cannon going off with dollar signs bursting out of it.
Comment Continued : The comment above was written from the same location.
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Comment Profile Imagemom of lots
Comment #58 | Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 at 9:11 am
Thank you True Patriot for speaking the truth!
Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #59 | Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 at 1:42 pm
Veteran,

Sorry for the delay. Between work and sorting paperwork in prep for taxes…

I thought your letter was relatively erudite. I'm especially glad you stayed away from the ad hominem argument of comparing resumes. I have nothing against saying, "I was in Somalia and I saw this or that." But I am sick and tired of people getting away from the heart of a disagreement by attacking the person's age, sex, or military experience and the like.

This may surprise you but I agree with the vast majority of what you wrote. I can't disagree with your take that you "would not enjoy patrolling bikini clad beaches." I believe you. But frankly, I would. Give me that job any day.

I starting to to believe helicopter pilots require experience in sun umbrella avoidance along with their "terrain/wires avoidance" training and I'm up for it all the way.

However… I think the essentially problem with your post as a response to my statements is that you pose a bunch of straw man arguments. No wonder you knock them down so efficiently.

To be specific, I'm not saying the military has no sensitivity to whales. I also understand that this anecdote is clearly representative of many other instances of military wisdom in difficult circumstances. You pretend (straw man), or the tone of your post pretends, that I am anti-military and anti-eminent domain.

I favor a strong, smart, effective military.

Eminent domain is in the constitution. I am all for eminent domain. If there were a vote tomorrow on keeping it, I would support it wholeheartedly.

The question is not whether or not I support these things. I do. The question is how these two ideas are implemented… I believe we could do a lot better, a whole lot better, on both fronts.

mom of lots
Thanks for the kind words. The kid's idea is better than mine. I wish I had written it.

Ellie
Me and Redneck Bill are going to have a flag waving contest in front of Denny's tomorrow morning. We're going to see who can wave their flag most vigorously at the passing cars. You're invited. Oh wait, sorry, I'll be in church all day. Maybe monday?
Comment Profile ImageELLIE
Comment #60 | Saturday, Jan 23, 2010 at 7:43 pm
True patriot:
While your at church, make sure you pray for all our soldiers everywhere, the freedom you have and being able to sleep at night knowing your safe in your bed. While your praying, be thankful you can do so whenever you please and not having to be told to 6 times a day.

Ever thought about running for office? any office? This country could use a new stand on almost any topic.

By the way, I prefer Wayside...
Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #61 | Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 at 9:51 pm
Is this section locked?
Comment Profile Imagestaff
Comment #62 | Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 at 9:58 pm
No. As long as the comments aren't vulgar or too derogatory we'll keep approving them, and think it's important for the community to use the comment system as a sounding board and a way to work out issues.
Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #63 | Sunday, Jan 24, 2010 at 11:02 pm
Thanks for the clarification.

I thought the story might still be live till the 29th. I assume there are some additional high-explosive munitions being fired during this week? At least that's what the story says.

A short post of mine seemed to be blocked because of the apostrophes in contractions. A slashes were automatically added and the post instantly blocked.

I'll try again tomorrow.
Comment Profile ImageYes, but
Comment #64 | Monday, Jan 25, 2010 at 12:29 pm
My comment at 11:17 am Monday, January 25th, 2010 was directed to "Veteran".
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Comment Profile ImageYes, but
Comment #65 | Monday, Jan 25, 2010 at 12:29 pm
I generally agree with the points you have made. One thing though. You said "The DESIRES of Americans are a separate (varied and fickle) thing". While that's probably true in general, that wouldn't be fair to apply to, as just one example, not wanting to have helicopters fly low over your home at nearly 1AM in the morning, when you are trying to get enough sleep to be able to work the next day. That is not what I would call a "fickle desire", yet the military simply says it can fly until 1AM. I understand why they need to have that leeway, but I don't see why scheduling cannot be changed in a case like that, unless it is an emergency. In a mixed environment of residences and military operations, compromise is fair and necessary.
Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #66 | Monday, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:53 pm
Ellie

Now that McCain's work on campaign finance reform has been obliterated by the Supreme Court, democracy (whatever was left of it) is pretty much toast. This was Friday's news, along with a disappointing market.

I am a free market capitalist, with an emphasis on the word "free."
Comment Profile ImageRedneck Bill
Comment #67 | Monday, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:53 pm
I can't even begin to tell you how much I love this stuff. The, "I'm suffering" stuff. The, "they wake me up at 0100."

It's all about ME. That's how I operate as well.

But just to give perspective, can you picture something, anything worse than hearing helicopter noise at 0100?

Have you ever been gone from your family for 6 months to a year? That is a hard one to picture. You don't sleep in your bed and you don't see your loved ones. Now lets picture that difficult situation, not seeing your family for a very long period of time, and just for fun, lets throw in unbelievable weather conditions. You ever been in 120 degrees without airconditioning? For days and months on end? With blowing sand entering body orfices not meant for sand? No big deal right? (It makes hearing helo noise at 0100 seem like a joke.) You're ready to sign up, aren't you. But wait, not only are you away from your family and the weather sucks, but there are people trying to KILL you.

No person on this earth despises what we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan more than I. But the guy flying the helicopter is simply training so he can do what he will be called on to do overseas. Neither he nor his boss is trying to bother your sleep. I guarantee it.

So next time you hear a helo while you are trying to sleep, picture what that pilot and the men he will support will be dealing with in the very near future. Then roll over, go back to sleep, and be thankful you aren't too hot to sleep, there is no sand blowing in your nose and ears, your family is beside you, and best of all, nobody is trying to kill you.

Only in America can we complain about things we shouldn't complain about.
Comment Profile ImageVeteran
Comment #68 | Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 at 9:48 am
Took me a while to find this thread agian, but...

true patriot - Nope, never thought you were anti military...a moniker like "True Patriot" would preclude that. As for a straw man, well - that's up to you to judge I guess. I'll state my point, you'll state yours...make America great that we can cordially disagree on these points. I do agree that there are a lot of things that could be planned and executed better...ahhh if only I was in charge.


Yes, but - Ok, we agree about the fickle point (mostly), and while I really do enjoy "the sound of freedom", not so much at 1am just like you. However you last point about compromise made me curious...do you really think that the Marines at CP are not compromising with the local community already? Standardized flight routes, minimum altitudes and "quiet hours" are just a few of the ways that the Marines are working to compromise with the community. I may have mis-interperted your post, but I think they do a pretty good job.
Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #69 | Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 6:30 pm
Veteran,
Couldn't agree more with your comments, especially about making America great.

Honest question: What would be some of the things you would do militarily if you were in charge?
Comment Profile ImageVeteran
Comment #70 | Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 at 7:45 pm
Wow...I've certainly done my share of complaining about stuff, lets see...

1. Fix veteran's benefits: American kids are sold a bill of goods that sounds like a retirement package when they sign up, but all to often Congress (and the leaders under them) change the rules. For example, health benefits have deteriorated with CHAMPUS/TRICARE rules restricting access to care for many vets, we especially need to fix the way that wounded/disabled veterans recieve care.

2. Normalize the deployment/home cycle. This would be pretty tough, but every military person who has been sent on deployment should be entitled to a proportional ammount of "down time." If not only for them-for their spouses and children, who suffer the separation often silently. Without a strong foundation of a home life where the family really FEELS RESPECTED by the military, the service member can not fully commit to their tasks at hand while worrying for their loved ones.

3. Unify the services. There are so many running jokes between the diferent services about who: works more, eats more dirt, kisses their cousins...but in reality we depend on eachother. A good first step would be to consolidate to one working uniform, look alike-get along. Cross-service tours for more than senior officers would help understanding flow into the services from those senior enlisted front line leaders, and I think benefit each service in their respective missions.

4. Improve education benefits. Lets face it, smarter is better. Educated citizens (more often) make better decisions and in a culture like the military we take EVERYONE. Lets give these people, all of them, a hand up in the education department. It is a job after all, and after they seperate/retire the investment in education will be returned with interest to the community.

5. Hold contractors to the line. BILLIONS of dollars are spent on behind schedule/over budget projects. We would not pay a person to fix our cars and then they dont deliver would we? We do however keep paying the companies that fail to perform to the contracts they sign. If they couldnt do the job, they shouldnt have taken it on.

I can go on and on (and on), and in general I think things are pretty good on this side of the base gate. It can allways get better though...there are hundreds of thousands of American kids doing the right thing every day, right under our noses - I'd like to make their lives better.

Whew, maybe its good Im not in charge - ha
Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #71 | Friday, Jan 29, 2010 at 4:02 pm
I couldn't agree more with every point you make. I hope others read it and understand that there's a lot we can do better. And there are poor reasons that these things don't get done.

I want to make a couple of additional comments but hope people focus on your post first. I'll comment in a couple of days.
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Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #72 | Monday, Feb 1, 2010 at 8:38 am
Okay, here's my thought on your post.

It's not a very popular thought with either my liberal or conservative friends, but here it is.

Bring back the draft.

No deferments. Everyone can do something to serve their country. No deferments for college. No deferments for blindness. After all, Arabic translators don't need to see.

Then everyone has a stake in the points you make. Everyone understands them better. And Presidents are better qualified to become Commander in Chief.

What do you think?
Comment Profile ImageVeteran
Comment #73 | Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 at 6:37 am
I think it is too extreme and unless absolutely necessary...it's practically un-American.

I know that the Israeli's have a conscription system for their armed services where two years service is required, and culturally I think it works for them...but Americans? Oh my goodness, I can hear the self pity from the teeming masses already.

Ok, joking aside, our services are not equipped to support that plan and it is cost prohibitive. The training required for many of the more technical jobs in the military takes nearly 2 years before that person becomes operational (Bootcamp to boots on the ground). The money it would cost the country to feed/clothe/train/compensate these citizen-soldiers would be immense as well. Everyone knows that the government and military is a NPO...we couldnt turn a profit if our lives depended on it. It would cause an immense strain on our country to have a national conscription program.

I agree that it would give perspective to those who served in a press-gang military...but I wonder what kind of impression it would really leave after being forced into unwanted service.

I wouldn't want to have a POTUS that was still bitter about the 2 years he was forced to serve, when he wanted to go to college and smoke, but not inhale a little weed.

Just my 2 cents
Comment Profile Imagemom of lots
Comment #74 | Thursday, Feb 4, 2010 at 12:36 am
true patriot- I disagree with bringing back a draft. I can see why this is so unpopular with both your conservative and liberal friends! Draft does NOT equal freedom. The state is not my almighty god and they should have ZERO jurisdiction over me or my family. Your logic is like saying, "Let's make it mandatory for all parents to send their children to public school so that more people will care about the public school system, have more stake in it and make it better."
Veteran- I appreciate so much your comment about giving military more time in between deployments. My brother in law returned only 6 months ago from Iraq and is being sent this week to Afghanistan. He had a HELL of a time recovering from his last deployment and has a new marriage and little baby.
Comment Profile ImageVeteran
Comment #75 | Friday, Feb 5, 2010 at 11:48 am
Mom of lots - I appreciate your enthusiasm, but really?

"The state is not my almighty god and they should have ZERO jurisdiction over me or my family."

I'm sorry, but you NEED the state - both of the union, and California to have some jurisdiction over your family. I personally enjoy the protections afforded by the jurisdiction they exercise in the realms of public health, public works, public parks, highway safety, fire and police protection and a covey of other things that my government does to keep an American society organized and working.

I'm not criticising you, but curious if that is your genuine sentiment or letting off steam. Unfortunately, I suppose, some people really feel that way about their government. It does have it's flaws and corruption, but in general it is more beneficial than detrimental.
Comment Profile Imagemom of lots
Comment #76 | Saturday, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:51 pm
Veteran- I did not mean it literally- I meant that they should not have the authority to send me, my husband or my children off to war against their will. I was making that statement in regards to bringing back the draft- and yes, there was some steam in my statement. As far as government is concerned, I agree it is necessary in order to have the benefits and organization we enjoy- I am not an anarchist by any means. I would consider myself an anti-federalist like Patrick Henry rather than a federalist like Alexander Hamilton. I am for a less centralized govt where states have more individual rights, but understand the need for a centralized govt.
Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #77 | Monday, Feb 8, 2010 at 11:30 pm
mom of lots,
It seems as if you believe that it is the job of others to serve the country. It is not your job, your husband's job, or your family's responsibility. It is your job to reap the benefits of what others, such as veteran, do or did.

I understand. I think there are many people that think that way.

Patrick Henry, of course, gave a famous speech about "Give me liberty or Give me death" in reference to a call to arms during the Revolutionary War. It's ironic that you'd bring him up in this context.

Conscription has been used often in American history. For instance, in WWII. Nothing un-American about it. "Stop-loss" is un-American, but that is something most don't want to think about.
Comment Profile ImageAnon-
Comment #78 | Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 at 9:39 am
FYI...

President George Washington offered Henry the post of Secretary of State in 1795, which he declined out of opposition to Washington's Federalist policies. However, following the radicalism of the French Revolution Henry's views changed as he began to fear a similar fate could befall America and by the late 1790s Henry was in support of the Federalist policies of Washington and Adams.

Patrick Henry realized the error of his ways and supported the Federalist view point in the end.

Funny - huh?
Comment Profile Imagemom of lots
Comment #79 | Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 at 10:31 am
true patriot- I do not believe that it is "other people's jobs" to serve our country. I have family members who serve. NOT everyone in this country is called to military service. There are men and women who take care of their homes, their businesses, their families, etc who lead very productive and full lives serving in other ways to better our country and our world. You are very narrow in your thinking. We are not all carbon copies of each other called to to do the same service. I resent what you said to me very much. Little do you know how I lay my life down everyday and little do you know how much my family members lay their lives down everyday. You should not make blanket statements to others about what they believe.
Anon- very interesting info, I did not know that. Wonder what Patrick would say today?
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Comment Profile Imagemom of lots
Comment #80 | Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 at 2:12 pm
Hey I know! Let's just have every citizen drafted, and have The United World! We can just take over all other countries much faster this way and the empire will be complete in no time.
Comment Profile ImageAnon-
Comment #81 | Wednesday, Feb 10, 2010 at 11:00 am
Mom of lots, I think you and Patrick henry would get along just fine. You both take your arguments to the exterme right or to the extreme left to suit your position at the moment. Nither Patrick Henry - or YOU for that matter, seem to take the time to form a accurate or supported point befory openting your yapper to spew out whatever nonsense supports your feelings....and not the truth. You are to flip-flopy in what you say and write what ever will get you a response.
Comment Profile Imagemom of lots
Comment #82 | Wednesday, Feb 10, 2010 at 1:04 pm
Anon- my arguments stand the test of time, for I have had these opinions for years. The problem is, it is difficult to put me in the "right/left" box, because I no longer fit in one of those categories as I did in my younger years. If you do want to try and figure what my opinions are on most matters (but not all), I am a supporter of Ron Paul. Take care and have a wonderful day!
Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #83 | Thursday, Feb 11, 2010 at 12:53 pm
Veteran,
Hope you are still reading. The argument about re-instating the draft has many points. And I could be wrong, but they persuade me, and relate to this story in a variety of ways.

First is the Stop-Loss issue I mentioned in a previous post. Essentially, we already have a draft. Many recruits are unaware that once their first tour of duty is over, they can be FORCED to go back for another and another. Some have called it modern slavery.

Yet, because of the alleged need for the "War on Terror" this continues to happen. Gates is trying to reduce this process by 50% later this year.

But, if you are one of those people who is sent back to war and has his legs blown off by an IED, it isn't going to seem fair and just... or particularly American.

Of course, Mom of Lots should be given a special exemption in that she already lays her "life down everyday" living in Fallbrook. Little do we all know what she goes through EVERY DAY before gracing the pages of the Village News with her remarkable posts.

But, aside from her, perhaps others should share the burden of Kabul, Baghdad, etc.
Comment Profile Imagemom of lots
Comment #84 | Thursday, Feb 11, 2010 at 2:54 pm
I am glad to see you have come around true patriot and see that we can serve our country in various ways other than military service.
"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." -James Madison
Comment Profile ImageVeteran
Comment #85 | Thursday, Feb 11, 2010 at 3:43 pm
True patriot - Stop loss is (I believe) a whole other kettle of fish from the draft or even conscription. When I joined up 22 years ago I remember very distinctly when I was explained how my tour in the service (on active duty) could be extended involuntarily for up to my 8 year mark. That is pretty standard (to my knowledge). Also, everyone who gets "Stop Lossed" was first a volunteer, and even though it really sucks for them, it is both safer and more cost effective for the military to keep them on active duty. Imagine the costs and dangers of trying to hurriedly train and deploy a new recruit to battle to relieve the soldier that wished to separate...we would be doing the new soldier and the remaining war fighters a great dis-service to leave them with a less than experienced member of their team.

...ok, personally I disagree with it, for "contractual" issues, but I see the necessity of it in certain situations. It's probably being abused in some cases (like nearly every other rule in life) but largely from the service people I know, they are hurting for people - especially those with experience. That is my only real proof that stop-loss is the exception and not the rule.
Stop-loss is just one of those things you either understand or hate (nobody likes it), but it is not a "backside draft", just a finger in a dike.


Mom of lots - You are right there are lots of ways you can serve your country without being in the military...you paid your taxes this year right? Thanks, but I don’t think that qualifies as "...lay my life down everyday and little do you know how much my family members lay their lives down everyday."
I don’t know you, and you very well may be a: police officer/fire fighter/public school teacher... or your family may be someone who makes those kind of tangible contributions to the country every day. Not to discount others, but these are the types of contributions I consider to be of the "lay down my life" category. But please - keep on being an involved citizen, there are far to few who are willing to pay tax, vote, or even take the time to question their elected officials. Honest, I'm not picking a fight.

For those of us who enjoy archaic quotes...

It's not tyranny we desire; it's a just, limited, federal government. - Alexander Hamilton

Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. - Patrick Henry
Comment Profile ImageTransplant from Rancho Bernardo
Comment #86 | Thursday, Feb 11, 2010 at 7:16 pm
When I lived in Rancho Bernardo for 8 years the helicopters flew right over my home (along the 15 fwy) all evening long, shaking my house and keeping me awake. I moved to Fallbrook in an area that had very little helicopter noise. Now, in the last 6-8 months, the helicopters start flying over my house on a daily basis at about 2:30 and continue through the entire evening and into the late night. I rarely can get to sleep before 11:30 because the helicopters are flying over my house. I understand that the marines need to train, but I can't understand why their helicopter flight path is directly over neighborhoods instead of over Camp Pendleton. Isn't Camp Pendleton big enough for them to fly over there? I actually hate living where I do now because of this excessive, continuous noise. Move the helicopter flight paths over Camp Pendleton!!! All the baloney about not being patriotic or caring about our marines is just that, Baloney!! There is no question that the marines need to train, but they don't need to do it right over our homes!!!!
Comment Profile ImageVeteran
Comment #87 | Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 6:06 am
Not happy eh? Lodge a complaint, and if enough of your neighbors do the same you may be able to have the flight routes changed, minimum altitudes increased, or times restricted.

There is only so much airspace, and only entering and exiting Camp Pen via the ocean is not a solution...but good luck with that!

OBTW...why would you move to a house RIGHT BESIDE a base with an air station attached if you dislike helicopters so much?
Comment Profile ImageVeteran
Comment #88 | Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 9:39 am
Here is a good place to voice your concerns, be polite and professional...most Marines don't appreciate anything that resembles a whine.

MARINE CORPS AIR STATION MIRAMAR
NOISE COMPLAINT INFORMATION

Noise Complaint Hotline
(858) 577-4277 or 4279

http://www.miramar.usmc.mil/WebPages/NoiseComplaints/NoiseComplaints.htm
Comment Profile Imagemom of lots
Comment #89 | Friday, Feb 12, 2010 at 11:02 am
to transplant from Rancho Bernardo- I am a light sleeper and live right by base- I sleep with everything shut up and a fan on at night- I have never been bothered by the helicopters- try it, it works fabulous!
Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #90 | Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 9:09 am
Transplant,
I agree with you completely.

And I don't believe you should have to file a form F1309858-FUGGEDAHBOUTIT and rally your neighbors for a candlelight vigil and have a perfect attitude when filing your form.

The other day several military choppers flew within a hundred feet of my house. It's like an earthquake. Unbelievable power.

You should know, however, that Mom of Lots slept thru the bomb drop in Hiroshima with that fan idea. And she's a light sleeper? I guess we should both try that. I'm thinking I need a bigger fan. :)
Comment Profile Imagemom of lots
Comment #91 | Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 5:46 pm
although, a bigger fan sounds tempting
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Comment Profile Imagemom of lots
Comment #92 | Saturday, Feb 13, 2010 at 5:46 pm
true patriot- I said not one word about bombs, I was referring to nightly helicopter noise.
Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #93 | Sunday, Feb 14, 2010 at 1:32 pm
Veteran,
There are tremendous weaknesses in your points about stop-loss, and I will come back to them in another post.

But Transplant's post inspires me to bring up a couple of additional observations about the draft.

First, this war, more than ever, is about winning hearts and minds on a local and international level. Bluntly put, we are doing a crappy job of that.

If these guys truly have to fly choppers within a hundred feet of houses, we'd like to hear why... from them. Now imagine you're getting this treatment in Afghanistan combined with rockets that accidentally go off course killing innocent families next door. Apologies don't quite cut it.

Heck, they don't even seem to care about American citizens trying to earn a living and pay their taxes to keep their helicopters aloft in the first place.

This is not a way to win the hearts and minds of people. The current mindset is that the military is something separate from the citizenry. Put a "Support the Troops" bumper sticker on your car and think no more of it.

A draft ensures a true involvement of the citizenry. In the past, it put an end to the Vietnam war.

In the present, I think the draft ensures new, more effective strategies than buying a bigger and better tank.

You must know, more than most people, how strategies must change with the times and what happens when countries fail to adapt.
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Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #94 | Monday, Feb 15, 2010 at 1:05 pm
Since we are sharing Thomas Paine quotes, heres one on the bible.

The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion. It has been the most destructive to the peace of man since man began to exist. Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses, who gave an order to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and then rape the daughters. One of the most horrible atrocities found in the literature of any nation. I would not dishonor my Creator's name by attaching it to this filthy book. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]
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Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #95 | Monday, Feb 15, 2010 at 1:05 pm
excuse me. revise to old quotes from founders.
Comment Profile ImageVeteran
Comment #96 | Monday, Feb 15, 2010 at 1:08 pm
True Partiot...I'll respond line by line...again, it's just my opinion from my prespective, I never claimed to be omnipotent...

First, this war, more than ever, is about winning hearts and minds on a local and international level. Bluntly put, we are doing a crappy job of that.
***I agree, we are losing that aspect at home and in the war zone.

If these guys truly have to fly choppers within a hundred feet of houses, we'd like to hear why... from them. Now imagine you're getting this treatment in Afghanistan combined with rockets that accidentally go off course killing innocent families next door. Apologies don't quite cut it.
***I explained a few of the reasons earlier...but most of the complaints I have read here are about helicopters in transit, and not performing their primary missions. Transiting helicopters are just that...going somewhere else - away from you - to do their jobs. Apologies dont cut the fatal mistakes in Afghanistan, but I offer NO apologies for the Camp Pendelton helicopters, just insight.

Heck, they don't even seem to care about American citizens trying to earn a living and pay their taxes to keep their helicopters aloft in the first place.
***Wow, this is inflamitory and provoking speech even for you. Are you seriously saying our motives are selfish? Seriously, we dont do this job for the buckets of money they throw at us...we do it to preserve the "american way of life" whichever one you choose to live.

This is not a way to win the hearts and minds of people. ***True
The current mindset is that the military is something separate from the citizenry. ***We are, but held to a much higher standard than the average citizen
Put a "Support the Troops" bumper sticker on your car and think no more of it.***If you like, but not required.


A draft ensures a true involvement of the citizenry. In the past, it put an end to the Vietnam war. ***And would likely have the same effect on the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

In the present, I think the draft ensures new, more effective strategies than buying a bigger and better tank.***The draft brings in new people whose opinions and Ideas would not be considered in policy and tactical desisions. The draft changes little about our strategy.


You must know, more than most people, how strategies must change with the times and what happens when countries fail to adapt.***Our strategies have, do, and will continue to change. The battles we fight are only similar in one respect, people will die. Every thing else from the terrain to the tactics changes.
Comment Profile Imagemom of lots
Comment #97 | Tuesday, Feb 16, 2010 at 9:38 am
true patriot- you are what I would call an abrasive and inflammatory personality.
Comment Profile ImageRedneck Bill
Comment #98 | Wednesday, Feb 17, 2010 at 8:25 am
WOW! Now this is getting good.

My wife ALWAYS admonishes me not to write anything when I have a buzz, but tomorrow is the beginning of Lent, so I'm getting rid of the temptation--the Stone India Pale Ale in the reefer.

Mom of lots--do you remember when you told true patriot he should run for office?

True Patriot--you are correct, we think a lot alike.

Veteran--you reinforce the notion that our warriors are multifaceted, capable and bright.

I just spent the past weekend--President's Day weekend--with my Marine Corps son pilot in training and his buds. I'm an old man, and I've been around the block more than once. I can not even begin to tell you how impressive these young men and women are. If all y'all (any ideas where I've been) could spend 5 minutes with these guys you would walk away thinking differently about the noise you hear.

As a country, we messed up big time with a war of choice and we are and will pay dearly for a long time to come. But that was a politicians choice. It is separate and distinct from the sacrifice our military makes. They simply do what they are told.

This will mess some of you up, and conflict you to no end, but my son (and I hope me as well) is a devout Christian. I know my good friend the priest struggles with that concept, but it is valid nonetheless.

So I guess the question is this:

Is it possible that God made us all different, that He loves us equally, and we're ALL right?
Comment Profile Imagemom of lots
Comment #99 | Wednesday, Feb 17, 2010 at 10:28 am
Redneck Bill- NEVER did I say True Patriot should run for office, although I did thank him for speaking the truth much earlier on. However, upon further investigation, I have realized that True Patriot and I have differing opinions.
As a Christian who is joining you in celebrating Lent this season, I have to agree with you that God made us all different with differing opnions. However, I have to disagree with you that we are all right.
Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #100 | Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 10:03 am
Hey Redneck,

Honestly glad to see you back.

I can see you are a man of taste: Stone, no less. :)

I completely understand and appreciate the sentiment behind your post. I think it is a noble thought worth contemplating.

I especially liked your paragraph:

"As a country, we messed up big time with a war of choice and we are and will pay dearly for a long time to come. But that was a politicians choice. It is separate and distinct from the sacrifice our military makes. They simply do what they are told."

Couldn't agree more.

Also liked the way you ended it.

Don't worry about Mom of Lots comments. Some Christians understand so little about Christ, let alone observing Lent.

And hey I just realized, I didn't give up IPA for Lent. :)
Comment Profile ImageRedneck Bill
Comment #101 | Saturday, Feb 20, 2010 at 9:57 pm
true patriot,

We're only 4 days in and already I realize you are the smarter of the 2 of us, not giving IPA up. But in addition to the spiritual benefits, it gives this old sailor's liver a much needed rest. And just so you don't think I'm one of "those" Christians, I do positive stuff as well.

I don't worry about Mom of Lots. I've tried to have honest discussion with her in the past and it just doesn't work. The "Christian" stuff, i.e., love your neighbor as yourself, doesn't fly on here with most folks. But I have come to understand that it's a process and we each grow at a different pace. I'm as wrong to judge their progress as they are to judge mine or others.

You ever try Stone Ruination? It's even hoppier (better to me) than IPA.
Comment Profile Imagemom of lots
Comment #102 | Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 at 4:45 am
True Patriot- your statements are bizarre. Again, you make statements and draw conclusions to be abrasive rather than debate the topic at hand.
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Comment Profile Imagemom of lots
Comment #103 | Sunday, Feb 21, 2010 at 4:46 am
Redneck Bill- it seems you have had some discussion with me in the past that I am not aware of....like we have some sort of previous debate history. Just because we do not agree on certain things does not mean I do not love my neighbor as myself. How you go from debating with someone to making a statement that they do not love others and what kind of Christian they are I have no idea. I think if you met me, you'd actually like me and vice versa.
Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #104 | Monday, Feb 22, 2010 at 2:54 pm
Redneck,
I haven't experienced Stone Ruination, but it just went on my To Do list.

1. fix the weather seal on the garage door
2. buy Stone Ruination
3. fix the mailbox

In fact, I may try Arrogant Bastard too... just for the name.

Lent, of course, has me thinking about peaceful endeavors on a local and global scale. And I thought I should mention that the helicopters are flying much higher these days. At least over my house. Peaceful, intelligent solution?

I also notice in the news that it looks as if the Dutch are likely to pull their troops out of Afghanistan. This means 1600 more needed and not enough to go.

I was also talking to a Marine buddy of mine at the gym a few days ago. A guy severely injured for life recently in service to his country. And the stop-loss stories we shared. Stop-loss happens because not enough are "called to service" for their country.

Suddenly, it occurred to me. The solution. Maybe.

Draft Mom of Lots and send her to negotiate with the Taliban.

I'm sure they can't take it for very long. Who can?

At first, this might seem like a simple joke, but I think the leader of Liberia or one of those small African countries, is a woman who (along with a small group of other women who prided themselves in being mother) overthrew the dictator there.

They had enough of the killing and talked the opposition into submission. She was called crazy at the time... till it worked.

Point is that there's method in this madness. Next time I'll tell you about a USMC General who is even more adamant about the draft than I am.

Veteran, I'll get back to your points soon.
Comment Profile ImageRedneck Bill
Comment #105 | Tuesday, Feb 23, 2010 at 8:33 am
true patriot,

Maybe you aren't as smart as I thought.

Your To Do list should read:

1) Buy Stone Ruination
2) Drink Stone Ruination
3) Plan needed repairs

I think Stone named Arrogant Bastard as they did knowing many people would try it just because of the name. It's good, but Ruination is the best. But Ruination is $15/6 pack.

If you like beer try The Yard House in Temecula. They have 120 beers on tap.

I'm glad the boys are flying their helo's a little higher over your house. Honestly, those pilots are the most decent, engaging, respectful guys you could meet. If you ever do get a chance to meet with one, and you don't come away impressed, I would be surprised. Compared to their peers, many of whom can't dress, speak or act appropriately, the pilots are miles ahead. (The fact that f**k is an adjective to Marines, notwithstanding.)

I asked my son if he agreed with me that it is arrogant in the extreme for the United States to go into Afghanistan and expect a different outcome than every other single power to have done the same. He agreed with that assessment, but noted (1) that we were attacked from Afghanistan and (2) the place would disintegrate without us there. He also knows he will be deployed there.

I recently heard Frank Rich, the author of "Fiasco" and the military correspondent for the New York Times, discussing Afghanistan. His conclusion was that every option we have there ranges from bad to very bad to catastrophic.

The needless waste of resources is bad enough, but to put these kids through the meat grinder, to keep sending them back over and over again until they're toast, and to see them so seriously injured--it makes me sick to my stomach.

I don't know whether a draft is the answer or not. The argument that everyone having blood in the fight would bring it to a more swift conclusion makes sense, but so does the argument that our Armed Forces are better as a volunteer force. And they do need to be good, because the next war will come.

I was going to respond to your Mom of Lots suggestion, but I can't find my 10' pole.
Comment Profile ImageVeteran
Comment #106 | Tuesday, Feb 23, 2010 at 8:36 am
Standing by, with a cold Fat Tire in my hand.

Had a good laugh about drafting Mom of lots, it just might work.
Comment Profile ImageRedneck Bill
Comment #107 | Tuesday, Feb 23, 2010 at 12:53 pm
Oops.

It's Tom Ricks, not Frank Rich. Just wait til you guys get old.

By the way, what makes either of you think Mom of Lots won't do to you what you would have her do to the Taliban?

I learned a long tme ago to give angry women a wide berth.
Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #108 | Friday, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:31 pm
redneck and veteran,

I looked up that Liberia issue, and it's even more interesting than I remembered.

First, I believe that Charles Taylor was the ultimate scum. Bush tried to remove him and couldn't. He's being tried or was tried for atrocities in The Hague. He made other dictators look like nice guys. I remember seeing part of a docu on tv that I couldn't watch all the way thru. I was amazed some of the images were allowed on tv. The village news censor wouldn't allow a description, I am sure.

Now there's a woman head of state, mother of four boys. And she got there through another woman's peace group, which involved a series of tongue lashings on Taylor. In fact, a bunch of them followed him to Ghana and tongue lashed him there. They made a movie about this called, "Pray the Devil Back to Hell." You'll find it in Wiki.

Veteran, this is a first attempt to demonstrate thru successful examples that our tactics have to change more than they have and in ways you can hardly imagine. Next up I'll repeat a story about how the Green Berets used a unique strategy to deal with terror in Sarajevo.

This is a twitter, American Idol, Facebook cell phone world, whether we like it or not. Shock and awe is not only old school, it's counterproductive. It didn't work on Hanoi, and it won't work here.

more later, like how to read my To Do list.
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Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #109 | Friday, Feb 26, 2010 at 4:07 pm
My To Do list remains fairly stable. Positions 1 and 3 haven't changed in months. That's why the garage door still leaks every time there's more rain. I'm just hoping to avoid it till the Summer when that task shifts down a few notches.

I put what I really want to do in position 2. Buried. It works for me so far. :)

Still, Redneck, I'm probably not as smart as u thought. I believed there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. I believed Colin Powell. What an idiot I was. And that's not the first time I bought the bull.

Veteran, we agree on a lot of stuff. What we don't agree on, basically, are tactics.

more later
Comment Profile ImageRedneck Bill
Comment #110 | Friday, Feb 26, 2010 at 10:18 pm
true patriot,

If I remember correctly, the number of Americans that believed there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq was something like 95%. Our government knew at some point in time Hussein had them, at least non nuclear weapons, because we gave them to him or assisted in their acquisition. So you weren't alone.

The matter of whether Hussein tried to obtain yellowcake material to produce uranium, is where my blood begins to boil. I could go on until the end of time on that one, but in my view, the deception and outright lies associated with that matter are criminal. It wasn't an honest mistake. The American public was intentionally misled to justify going to Iraq. That has been proven to me beyond any doubt.

You probably don't remember, but during the Vietnam War, the best of all worlds for a draft age man, other than a college deferment, was the Air National Guard. How ironic, that the architects of the Iraq war spent their time during the Vietnam War in the Air National Guard and with college deferments. As for Colin Powell, what an unforgivable, cowardly act to not have the nads to stand up to Bush and Cheney. He has since told us he knew he was giving the UN unreliable information. But he did it anyway. He played along and now look where we are. I believe that these 3 men, along with Donald Rumsfeld, have altered the course of American history, and for the worse. This war and it's after effects will harm us very seriously for a very long time. I don't think the average American understands the social nor economic impact this war is and will have on us. One thing is certain, our standard of living will decline significantly.

I'm not smart enough to know how to proceed in either Iraq or Afghanistan. But I agree that tactics need to change. Well, I agree that shock and awe don't work. What is needed in changing hearts and minds is such a huge task, I'm not sure it can be done. There is a part of me that thinks we should declare victory, like we did in Vietnam and will likely eventually do here, and come home.

So what do you think of that Ruination stuff? Is it Easter yet so I can have a few?

Also, I would like lessons on how to get away with "burying" things on the To Do list. I get reminded daily of my list.
Comment Profile Imageanna
Comment #111 | Monday, Mar 1, 2010 at 9:12 am
Moved here 23 years ago, live close to the base, when they practice it is loud, but a peaceful LOUD--May God protect our service men.
Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #112 | Monday, Mar 1, 2010 at 2:52 pm
Redneck,
Thanks for telling me about the 95% who were also fooled about weapons of mass destruction. It makes me feel a bit better to have so much company in my foolishness.

In my house, it was 50-50 with my wife taking the correct side and I don't believe I'll ever hear the end of it. She completely and correctly ignored Powell's "facts and photos." She called it another Gulf of Tonkin con job and was correct. She didn't like Hussein, like all of us, but didn't think we would be wise to interfere. She also thought we had no idea what we were getting into there, emphasizing cultural differences.

btw, I showed her your last comment and she thinks you're absolutely right about Afghanistan and especially right about "I don't think the average American understand the social nor economic impact this war is and will have on us. One think is certain, our standard of living will decline significantly."

btw a second time, I write this from the doghouse, as the garage door leaked yet again and some stuff got wet that shoulda been moved back. I'm not sure my To Do list is working as well as it has in the past. I am, however, happy to be sitting here with a bottle of Ruination. I am not a beer expert, but I like it. Don't worry Easter is coming.

more later
Comment Profile Imageappleboy
Comment #113 | Wednesday, Mar 3, 2010 at 11:14 am
Live by Douglas gate the sounds actually put me to sleep knowing others are getting training so that I can enjoy my twilight years. See samples of the eaglehead canes for the wounded warrior project @ finditbyme.com that are carved by the Fallbrook Carving Club.
Comment Profile ImageRedneck Bill
Comment #114 | Thursday, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:29 pm
true patriot,

I've been distracted by the events at Lake Hodges. My own daughter is a few years older than Chelsea, but had a very similar background, even running cross country. She's studying abroad and that just adds to my worry. But life goes on.

I'm not a beer expert either. In fact I used to buy beer most of the time based on price. Not that I had to, but I'm just cheap. When the kids introduced me to Natural Ice at $5.50/12 pak and 5.9% alcohol, I thought I had hit the beer jackpot. But then through some kind of Holy Spirit revelation I came to see that as much as I like beer, it makes sense to do more sampling. I think the fact that Costco has Stone IPA for $26/case kind of helped the Holy Spirit help me.

As for your doghouse, my recommendation is to tell your wife how much you LOVE your doghouse. A little Homer Simpson reverse psyhchology. She sounds intelligent, so it probably won't work, but I can tell you with certainty, that your To Do List will never be empty. Ever. So just relax and drink another ruination. I get the stuff that absolutely has to be done, done. But I know things will just keep getting added no matter what.

I don't remember just when I began to fully understand what a huge mistake going into Iraq was. I do remember having a very uneasy feeling before we went. I guess I thought Hussein had chemical weapons--everyone in the military was required to get an anthrax vaccination--and he would use them on our troops, and things would get very ugly. Instead, it was a slow bleed. And in the big picture, no less ugly.

What a sad, sad chapter in our history.

By my count, it's 4 1/2 weeks til Easter. That is a long time. Some Catholics, including my wife and my priest, think you can imbibe in whatever you gave up for Lent on Sundays. But that seems like cheating to me. I'll tough it out.
Comment Profile Imageresident 92028
Comment #115 | Friday, Mar 5, 2010 at 2:44 pm
i know its good that our troops practice its good to be prepared and have the strongest troops we can have.... but does it mean we are preparing our selves for something :(......
Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #116 | Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 at 10:40 am
Redneck,

Greatly enjoyed your post. more on that next time.

Veteran,

You wrote about the draft (military), "I think it is too extreme and unless absolutely necessary...it's practically un-American."

To say you don't like the draft is one thing. That's your right. But to imply that a view other than your own is "un-American" is certainly inflammatory. Just reverse the idea. What if I implied that your view was un-American?

Retired Brigadier General David M. Brahms (United States Marine Corps) believes even more strongly in the draft than I do. He believes that EVERYONE should serve at some time or other and in some way. (I do not.)

You can check him out on Wikipedia. He's a graduate of Harvard Law School and now practices law in Carlsbad.

He also still has a national presence, having just stood behind Obama (literally) as a strong human rights advocate.

The point is that there's nothing un-American about his career or his point of view. He is well-informed on the current situation and believes differently than you do.

I thought we were at war. That's what all this training at Pendleton is about.

Just how "absolutely necessary" and dire does the situation have to be before we draft the necessary interpreters and other skilled personnel needed for this war?

Imagine North Korea invades South Korea. This can happen tomorrow. What would be your plan?
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Comment Profile Imagetrue patriot
Comment #117 | Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 at 3:35 pm
Why would North Korea invade South Korea?

A serious craving for Fat Tire and Ruination. :)
Comment Profile ImageVeteran
Comment #118 | Sunday, Mar 7, 2010 at 3:36 pm
True Patriot, it sure took you long enough to take my statement about "THE DRAFT" and twist my words to imply I thought someone else's "VIEW" was un-American.

The draft is, in my opinion, un-American in that it takes away a citizen's freedom of choice. Since the end of the Vietnam war, we have had an all volunteer force. The public likes it that way. Besides some schools in the UC system, how many times have you heard of protests against the military's recruiting tactics?
Our elected national leaders have decided that we need to keep our military forces trimmed to "Peace time" numbers, though we fight 2 wars and multiple other conflicts globally. Ronald Reagan was the last president to support a strong military, and during his administration we would have been able to man-up for these wars easily.
Why would we institute the draft? To make up for the lack of foresight of our elected officials? To advance national policy? To what end would it be, and "would the juice be worth the squeeze?"

Interperters are trained from within the ranks, or hired as civilian contractors. In cases of specially skilled positions, the military often uses cash as the prime motivator to entice these people into service.

If North Korea invades South, were screwed. I guess we'd have to cross that bridge when we got there...but I dont think we would want to send a grip of high school graduates, freshly drafted and "boot camped" off to die valiantly in Korea, do you?

I'm really happy for Retired Brigadier General David M. Brahms (United States Marine Corps). Bully for him, he gets to exercise his freedom of speech that he defended for so long. But right now, he is only one voice in a sea of citizens...hope he votes so that voice is heard. He is as entitled to his opinion as you or I...and that is American.

So, before you decide that I am labeling your opinion as "un-American", take a moment to re-read my prior posts. I have only voiced my opinion on various topics, and offered counter points from my somewhat unique perspective.

V/R- Veteran
Comment Profile ImageRedneck Bill
Comment #119 | Friday, Mar 12, 2010 at 11:24 am
Veteran,

I'm beginning to wonder what's become of our buddy true patriot.

Maybe he did what I suggested and told his wife he loved his doghouse. There probably isn't wifi out there and thus no comms. I kind of hope he didn't take my suggestion, because if his wife threw him out I'd feel some responsibility.

Or maybe he agrees with your last post, and has nothing more to say.

You don't think he's a traveling salesman and he's off doing his thing, do you?

Best of all worlds is he overimbibed, and he's sleeping it off.

In all seriousness, and with recognition that you have been very respectful, I think he's after recognition that there are 2 valid sides in any debate about how the military is formed and used.

I know personally I always felt as though one political party held sway with most military and I could never fully understand that, especially given the last CIC's treatment of the military.

But the big debate now in the circles I follow is women on subs. As I said, there are valid points on both sides, just as with the idea of a draft.
Comment Profile ImageVeteran
Comment #120 | Friday, Mar 12, 2010 at 12:55 pm
Bill,

and I'll leave it at that, because I detect little or no Redneck there.

I appreciate other people's points of view, sometimes it is enlightening and other times, well just down right amusing. True Pat has some interesting points, and though I cant quite see how he got there, I can at least respect that he feels strongly about them. I appreciate both sides, even if I dont agree.

For his sake, I hope he crawled up in the doghouse with a growler of the vanilla porter from the Stone brewery, and has yet to crawl out.

I personally dont find anything particularly wrong with women on submarines. If they are able to do the job, let them. I really believe that the reason it has taken so long to come around is the "seperate but equal" sleeping and bathroom facilities. Submarines are small, very small, and segregating seperate modesty means giving up another capability if only storage space.

The debate that has peaked a lot of interest is wether or not homosexuals should be allowed to serve openly. I have my own opinions on it, and unforunately must keep them to myself because in today's society if you dissent against any progressive stance then you MUST BE some kind of racist, biggot or homophobe. Sadly this decision will be made for us by our elected leaders...without input from the hundreds of thousands of us wearing uniforms today. Such is the lot we choose.

As for political stance...a vast majority of the people I have served with over the past 22 years would label themselves conservative. The funny thing is that they cote their consciences rather than on party lines, and their affiliations are centered not solely on their own wanton desires - but by the direction of national policy. It's great to see young 20 somethings learning about the way their nation is moving and using their vote with hope that they can effect it.

Either way, we are heading into some interesting times for our nation.

Thanks.
Comment Profile ImageRedneck Bill
Comment #121 | Saturday, Mar 13, 2010 at 10:33 am
Veteran,

You are very perceptive, and I'm neither. It was my inappropriate, overdeveloped sense of humor that led me to come up with that name.

This will sound as though I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth, but if you knew me and my family you would understand. There are places women don't belong. I know that sounds like Redneck Bill, but that's what my experience, beliefs and knowledge tell me.

I have personal knowledge of unfairness, injustices and outright wrongs against military women. But Tailhook basically handed the women itching for a fight everything they wanted. Not that I disagree with women in planes or on ships. But physiologically, there are some things they can't do well. For example, a woman's body doesn't tolerate G forces as well as a man's. And nothing can be done about that. I might like to birth a baby, but that just will not happen this lifetime. Not even with legislation.

As for subs, we lived in Bremerton, and our neighbor was the COB on Ohio. I've been on the boats, so I think I understand. Having women on subs doesn't bother me personally, but I understand the concerns of the people on the boats. Subs are the cornerstone of the Triade. Apparently all that has been thought through.

But none of that is open to debate. It is happening. I've known gays in the military, and there weren't problems. Maybe that's because people weren't asking nor telling, but like the adjustment to women, in the end I believe it will somehow work.

I guess my problem with politics is that one party, in my opinion, has gone out of their way to make me feel as though somehow I'm less American or less patriotic if I don't see things as they do. Somehow we've lost our ability to have civil debate. And that saddens me more than anything.

You're right Veteran, we're steaming into uncharted waters. I hope what's coming forces us to ignore our differences and pull together.
Comment Profile ImageVeteran
Comment #122 | Wednesday, Mar 17, 2010 at 8:54 am
Bill- I don’t necessarily believe it is just one party goes out of their way to pressure you in to supporting their ideals. It's become fashionable all across America. As a citizen you are not to dissent against any popular movement whatsoever (ok maybe a little stretched).

If you are pro-life you must be a closed minded conservative…

If you are against freely allowing immigrants to flow North across the border then you must be anti-Mexican…

If you do not subscribe to the “alternative lifestyle”, and prefer not to see it or support it then you must be a Homophobe…

It is so out of fashion to have your own opinion, feel strongly about it, and speak out on the issue, that many people will automatically label you as some type of extremist or another.

Democrats do it, Republicans and Tea Party also. Conformity abounds.

I guess that’s why I had fun sparing with True Patriot, I really do enjoy engaging in debate, and appreciate that I’m not always right…a point that my wife is ever so quick to point out about a multitude of things.

In any case, I hope Americans can slough off the criticism and keep plowing ahead with their own ideas…I sure like mine.
Comment Profile ImageRedneck Bill
Comment #123 | Friday, Mar 19, 2010 at 7:50 am
Veteran,

You are correct about each political party pressuring people to support their ideals. I guess what I think has changed, and what I really don't like, is the tone of debate. I think in the past, there was vigorous debate, but at the end of the day everyone came together for the good of the country. Those days are gone.

And now, when we as a country have so many serious matters to deal with, we can't even talk to each other. That makes problem solving impossible.

I read an article recently by an author who views history as circular rather than linear. He identified 4 generational types, and thinks they keep repeating. He identifies the current generation--the Boomer generation--as being "in your face." He identifies the coming generation as being similar to the "Greatest generation." I hope he's right for all our benefit.
Comment Profile ImageJeff pala
Comment #124 | Tuesday, Jul 6, 2010 at 7:29 am
Study before you write. You should know that the care was taken by eminent domain in the forties
Comment Profile Imagesolution
Comment #125 | Tuesday, Mar 15, 2011 at 9:51 pm
EARPLUGS DO WONDERS!
Comment Profile Imagesharon
Comment #126 | Monday, Apr 18, 2011 at 12:56 pm
Remember, when you here all that is going on!!!!!our boys r getting ready for war. live with the noise
Comment Profile ImageKing of the battle
Comment #127 | Wednesday, Aug 31, 2011 at 9:08 am
Artillery is a wonderful weapon when you are in control of the effects. Be thankful its our artillery and not someone else's!
Comment Profile ImageBryan
Comment #128 | Tuesday, Feb 7, 2012 at 5:36 pm
Politics aside, there IS an elegance and a security involved with living next to the largest Marine base this side of the country... And we have the soundtrack to prove it :)
Comment Profile ImageClaire
Comment #129 | Wednesday, Feb 8, 2012 at 11:48 pm
It scares me! I feel like we're being attacked...I get that it's training, but could they not so it during the night, when I'm trying to sleep...it stops, and then I'm almost fully asleep, when BOOMM!! My whole bed shakes awaking me again...I can't stand it!
Comment Profile ImageGhandi
Comment #130 | Saturday, Feb 11, 2012 at 9:39 am
Seems like all you brainwashed War Heros believe all the misinformation your Defense Dept. fills your head with. The worlds single biggest polluter, is also fulfilling the Agenda of Fascist Corporate America. To think that the current wars we are involved with have little if anything to do with 'freedom' is a total misrepresentaion of the facts.
Iraq was about one thing, keeping the Oil out of the hands of China, and under control of US Oil Company interests. (example #1 of Fascism). Iraq is a disaster as far as it's standard of living since we trashed it. In time the Iraqi's would have done their own democrisizing.
Interesting how 9/11 was a Saudi Enterprise. Biting the very hand that fed them.
To try and win a War in Afganistan has proved futile. Trying to expand Capitalism (much more important to US interests that Democracy) to every Nation in the World is the new Agenda of the US Military.
Our houses shake now as Iran is the next Bombing Range Target. This much shaking hasn't occured since the Iraq invasion. If we could just get Iran to open the door for Coca-Cola, Home Depot, McD's as well as our wonderful Oil and Chemical Companies.
Come on Iran..the World Bank is waiting... just roll over so we can get some sleep.
Comment Profile ImageUSMC FBK RAISED
Comment #131 | Sunday, Mar 11, 2012 at 2:34 am
READING SOME OF THESE COMMENTS WHILE IM IN AFGHANISTAN FIGHTING FOR OUR COUNTRY MAKES ME SICK. JUST BE GLAD YOU ONLY WITNESS THE TRAINING PART. MISS YOU FALLBROOK!!!
Comment Profile Imagewassup
Comment #132 | Monday, Mar 12, 2012 at 5:39 pm
WHY DO U USE ALL CAPS? WE'RE NOT DEAF YET.
Comment Profile ImageSUP
Comment #133 | Saturday, Mar 17, 2012 at 1:30 am
MILITARY, WHEN YOU PASS MESSAGES YOU USE CAPS TO NOT CONFUSE THE READER. AND ABOUT YOUR HEARING, I WOULDNT WORRY ABOUT IT IM IN THE FRONT LINE AND I'M GOOD.
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Comment Profile ImageDEVIL DOG
Comment #134 | Saturday, Mar 17, 2012 at 1:32 am
LIKE MY DRILL INSTRUCTOR WOULD SAY, HERE'S A STRAW - SUCK IT UP, ITS JUST A LITTLE BOOM YOU'LL LIVE LOL
Comment Profile Imagehi
Comment #135 | Friday, May 4, 2012 at 8:51 pm
what are the zulu and whisky areas?
Comment Profile Imagemichael
Comment #136 | Friday, Jul 20, 2012 at 12:14 am
hi i live in lovelandcolorado but just this past week i was in wildomar cali where i could hear the booms of bombs ang some gumfire from what my aunt says shes herad its ok with her i was alittle freaked out by the sounds at first but i slowy got used to it my mom lived on camp cause her dad was in the army and thhey would do the same thing back then



GOD BLESS OUR U.S. TROOPS
Comment Profile Imageloveofmymarine
Comment #137 | Sunday, Sep 2, 2012 at 5:23 pm
you guys should be thanking them for all that they do. if they dont train how do you think they will get the experience of war. If it wasnt for our military and their tarining we would have our freedom, stop complaining and start thanking them for what they do for us. they do so much for people they dont even no and this is the thanks that they get. some people are just ungrateful and will never be happy. try having your freedom taken away. but like i said they need to training for the experience. You guys can do what you want at your home, let them do the same. I think people tend to forget that they leave their love ones to fight for us. Camp pendleton is their home so let them do what they need to.
Comment Profile Imagesigh
Comment #138 | Wednesday, Oct 24, 2012 at 11:39 pm
The sound of bombs is not "awesome".

Get it straight:

FACT: You can't win a war against people who have nothing to lose.
FACT: US military budget is 6-7 times larger than the $106 billion military budget of China
FACT: Meanwhile, US has fallen from its super power status to China.
FACT: Mitt Romney will send your sons to Iran next if elected.

Conclusion: everyone cheering for the sound of BOMBS going off near their house is an gravely misinformed and has little respect for human life. Tell me, what exactly are our sons/daughters dyeing for? Do a little research on the history of Afghanistan first before spouting off ignorant diatribe. This board just further explains why this nation is still in this mess.
Comment Profile ImageRedneck Bill
Comment #139 | Wednesday, Oct 31, 2012 at 8:59 pm
sigh,

I agree with you that the sound of bombs exploding are not awesome. They are the sound of sons and daughters preparing to go to war. They will be in harms way, and their lives will be at risk.

Of the 4 facts you list, you are wrong stating that a war can't be won against people with nothing to lose. See WWII and the Japanese and Germans.

My understanding is that our military budget is 10 times China's.

And most analysts agree, the US is still militarily vastly superior to China.

You are correct in stating that Mitt Romney has said he will militarily prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons.

May I ask if you have children? And if you do, and they happened to feel called to join the military, how would you feel about the noise they made preparing to go to war?

The noise you hear is from sons and daughters doing what they believe is the right thing to do. They will risk their lives based on this belief. Are you callous enough to criticize this belief?
Comment Profile Imageomg..
Comment #140 | Thursday, Jan 24, 2013 at 12:27 am
It really doesnt matter where the base does live fire, someone is going to hear it and complain. I live over 50 miles away and I can hear and feel the blasts. Its America that allows all these people to make their complaints against the military and have no consequences.
Comment Profile ImageLottieSue
Comment #141 | Friday, Mar 15, 2013 at 9:42 pm
When ever I hear live fire at Camp Pendleton I'm reminded that the training is in preparation for combat and perhaps those making all that noise will be in harms way very soon. I'm reminded to pray for them and their families.
My home in Fallbrook is newer with doubled pane windows and I sleep with a small fan on all night so I know for a fact that the noise level here is not as high as older homes in the area. Still, the live fire sounds like thunder to me and has always been a comfort to me and I feel protected knowing I'm living close to the base.
Comment Profile Imageexvet
Comment #142 | Saturday, Aug 3, 2013 at 12:55 pm
This is crazy. There are far less people in 29 palms. There seems to be alot of people out there who feel super patriotic for putting up with this noise. Their rants on how unpatriotic everyone else is makes them feel special and like a tough die hard person that will defend the military to the very end. For some of these people, sadly....thats all they have....how really great and patriotic they are. I and others are patriotic as well...but we dont feel a need to put others down. As well, why doesnt the military make any sense and do bombing in a more isolated area? There is like a half million people that live around the bombings probably more! You see, the powers that be have decided they DONT what to live in the cruddy desert and prefer the cool ocean breeze...so they said "We dont care about all those people that have to live around us and not get and sleep and hear bombs from 7 till 11 at night....ALL DAY LONG!...we prefer not to live in the desert and thats that!" Might makes Right! sooo suck it up all you americans, cause WE DONT CARE!
Comment Profile Imageredneck randy
Comment #143 | Tuesday, Aug 27, 2013 at 12:38 pm
THIS BOMB IS MUSIC TO MY EARS
Comment Profile ImageDJ
Comment #144 | Tuesday, Sep 10, 2013 at 10:40 am
Exvet pretty much hits the nail on the head.

Their whole point is pretty much akin to people complaining about the illegal immigration problem. I mean, after all everyone knows illegal immigration is a problem in CA so I guess we better just shut up about it or move somewhere else. God forbid we have a logical discussion on it and see if there is a way we can solve what many people see as a problem while not impacting the base.

I've lived here a long time and while I do understand the need for them to train I'm not sure why they have to use fully loaded munitions all the time, especially those C4 lines used to clear mines. Seems like it would save some $ to have say half as much explosives in them. I don't appreciate my kid being woken up at all hours of the night as our house is shaken violently. I'm not talking the usual boom but the one all of us go "whoa, they're blowing the hell out of something". I don't know why the chopper pilots have to fly "donuts in the sky" over our houses when they have 200 sq miles of base and considerably more over the Pacific. My gut tells me they share the same mindset as the "shut up or move you unpatriotic SOB" crowd...

None of what I mentioned even suggests that they move out to 29 Palms. Frankly given where troops would likely end up it actually may be a good idea for them to train out there instead of here at the coast but forget that. Just load the bombs with half as much munition, stop buzzing our houses, and I think that would curb 80%+ of the problems people have the noise from the base. And what is the impact to the troops? None. The bomb button still gets pressed, the boom is still made, mines still blow up, they still live here, etc.. Emotional rants and raves (on both sides) get you know where and sadly that is what happens most of the time you ever bring up this topic.

Lastly, what about the families who have lived here for generations? All of a sudden the whole "you knew what you were getting in to when you bought a house here" argument has no merit whatsoever.
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