‘Yes’ on Prop. 8
Thursday, October 23rd, 2008
Issue 43, Volume 12.
There have been many instances of hatred and intolerance expressed by opponents of Proposition 8 (the initiative to retain the customary definition of marriage). Last week a Modesto man was violently beaten for supporting traditional marriage. There have been numerous reports of aggressive verbal assaults against "Yes on Prop. 8" volunteers here in Fallbrook. Many (if not most) of the "Yes on 8" yard signs that were distributed throughout the community have been stolen (including two from my property and at least nine from my immediate neighbors).
It is ironic that the very ones who demand tolerance are intolerant; that those who cry "discrimination" are discriminating; and that those who holler "equal rights" are actively engaged in depriving others of their rights. There has been an orchestrated effort by those who oppose Proposition 8 to silence the pro-family voices and take from them their freedom of speech and expression, their freedom to spare their children from gay indoctrination and their freedom to practice their beliefs and be true to their moral standards. No such rights are taken from same-sex partners as a result of the passage of Proposition 8.
Position 8 is not anti-gay. It is pro-family and protects one of the few remaining sacred institutions: that of marriage.
I'm sorry to hear about the troubles you have been having in expressing your support for Prop. 8. As a gay person, I know very well what it is like to be repressed because of what I have believed. Like almost all gay people, I have experienced physical violence because of what I believe.
It's very hard for me not to sink down to the level of my aggressors and to attack them as they have attacked me. I'd ask you to also try not to sink down to the level of some of those who oppose you. There is a difference between defending yourself and attacking others.
I don't know about the veracity of your claims that "most people" who support "traditional" marriage have experienced a repression of their rights to free expression. However, I do know that you are wrong when you claim that Prop. 8 will not remove rights from same-sex partners. Prop. 8 will change legal standards for same-sex couples, and deprive them of inheritance rights and some visitation rights. It is anticipated that the federal government may soon allow same-sex married people to sponsor their spouses for immigration into the United States. This is often the only way that international couples can live together. This is all the Prop. 8 would affect, and none of these things have anything to do with religious expression or freedom of speech.
The way laws currently stand, it is up to individuals and individual religious organizations to decide whether they support same-sex marriages. The only role that the government plays with regard to same-sex marriages is to ensure that everyone has the right to either approve or disapprove of them. Some religious organizations fear that if Prop. 8 does not pass, they will be penalized for not practicing same-sex marriages, and that their children will be taught in school that same-sex marriage is morally acceptable. Both of these fears are unfounded, and the government has done its job in recent weeks by publicly stating that these things will not happen.
If your concern is truly about religious liberty and freedom of expression, why do you support a constitutional amendment that would take away religious liberty and freedom of expression from other religions. Prop. 8 would remove religious freedom from those religious organizations that do sanction same-sex marriages, including Unitarian churches and some Jewish congregations. While you may not share the beliefs of those religions, do you really want to take away their right to religious freedom?
Please, Mr. Morrison, put yourself in the shoes of those around you. Sir, no-one is going to force you to abandon your opposition to same-sex marriage, and it is not an assault on your beliefs for the government to decline to enforce them on everyone. Religious people have been a protected class, subject to strict scrutiny, for as long as this country has existed. The California Supreme Court ruled that gay people are also a protected class, subject to strict scrutiny. People become part of a protected class when there is a history of discrimination against them. Forming a protected class does not do away with the discrimination, but it does make sure that the government does not take part of it. Religious people have long been the subjects of discrimination, so the government promises it will not take part in the discrimination. Now, gay people have the same protection. Prop. 8 is merely an attempt to remove part of that protection.
Prop 8 is discriminatory. No one should be treated separately because of their sexual orientation. It is unfair
I don't condone any acts of violence, including gay bashing which has gone on for decades. Perhaps people are acting this viscerally because they DO see this proposition as a means to discriminate and feel they have to fight back.
Basically, the author is asking us to be tolerant of other people's right to be intolerant. And, he says Prop 8 is pro-family and not anti-gay. But, he fails to separate moral, religious views from civil views. Marriage is both a religious and civil institution. You can believe marriage is between a man and a woman, but you don't have the right to impose those religious views on others in a free society. Because that's what we're really talking about here -- freedom and fairness. Look, Massachusetts has allowed gay marriage for 5 years now. The sky didn't fall nor has the state been swallowed up in the depths of darkness. It's a non-issue for many people. People shouldn't be threatened by other's people's choices of who they love or who they want to include in their family. As long as they pay their taxes and are law abiding citizens, why does it matter?
The actions of a few members does not define the whole group. Everday I see Yes signs taken down, everyday I see No signs taken down. It's being done on both sides. Furthermore, with your intolerance and discriminatory views on this issue, aren't you throwing bricks from your glass house when you talk about the intolerance and discrimination on the other side?
And stop with this "protect marriage" thing. There are far more pressing issues affecting families everyday: infidelity, wondering how to pay the bills and how to put Johnny through college. And these are things that actually affect families. Same-sex marriage affects nobody except for the people who wish to commit to each other the way straight couples are able to. So why don't you go back and try fixing the issues that are really important to families, and then come back to same-sex marriage once you're done.
yes lets all smile and hug while you take away our rights. Are you mad? Prop 8 is anti-gay and you saying other wise doesnt change that fact.
Look im very sorry this man was attacked it wasnt right. But how dare you say we're not tolerant. Lets see how tolerant you are when you have people trying to take away your rights. I'm gonna take a stab in the dark here and say you wouldnt be all that happy about it. Yes, lets call this man intolerant...wait whats that i hear?I think I hear someone calling. Oh it's pot. Pot meet kettle.
Keep religious dogma out of the California Constitution. Vote NO on Prop 8
Well stated...As a very frustrated sign distributor in my area of California I feel violated when I continue to see signs for "Yes on 8" disappearing numerous times from the same location.To those who differ from my "Yes on 8" please leave my signs alone.Thankyou.
interesting you feel violated because a sign was stole i feel violated because my rights are in jeopardy. Im not saying stealing is right but come on man seriously.
Yes on prop 8.
Sorry folks, I voted yes.
Seeing how you felt the need to take my yard sign in the deep darkness of night completely illuminates who and what you are. You do this deed, and others, in the cover of darkness because you know it is wrong.
Did you not think that you would have opposition to Prop. 8? Make your argument and let people decide. Or do you think that you can push your opinions on others? By putting my sign out, I am simply stating my opinion. By removing it, you show that your position is weak. I realize that there will be opposition to my views, but I will not limit your rights to proclaim it. Neither should you.
The problem with giving the "right" to gays to marry is that it obligates religious groups to marry them, when it is completely against their beliefs. Don't the religious leaders have a right too? Don't they have the right to support their beliefs without threat of being sued by gay couples when they say no to marrying them?
Think about in Massachusetts, because a Catholic church operated adoption agency denied a lesbian couple the right to adopt a child they were sued and had to shut down their operations in order to stand up for their religious beliefs. The worse part is that the children that were ran through the adoption agency were children with mental retardations. Now tell me that no one else's rights were not infringed upon.
Lastly, gays have every right that a married couple has. That includes on taxes, hospital visitations, health insurance, and everything else. They will only gain the ability to force marriage from religious groups, or force church sponsored adoption agencies to give up children in unions contrary to the church's beliefs.
Freedom of rights stop as soon as it infringes on the rights of others, gays have not lost nor will gain any extra rights. Religious groups, and religious leaders (which are also people) will lose plenty of rights.
VOTE YES ON PROP 8
Prop 8 is simply to keep marriage the way it has been for thousands of years. Marriage is a relationship between husband and wife, who love and protect each other. This helps keep families strong. Even if the marriage has no children, it is still a family. It is religious because marriage is based in religion, the concept of a bond between man and women made by religion is carried over to the state.
Now if the bond is now between any 2 people, it is no longer religious. Yes, some churches allow Gays to marry, but the majority of marriages are not based in the covenant. This makes the bond less important. This hurts marriages long term.
Civil Unions afford our gay friends every right marriages do, without hurting marriages.
interesting you feel violated because a sign was stolen i feel violated because my rights are in jeopardy. Im not saying stealing is right but come on man seriously.
Prop 8 is actually a civil rights issue. Prop 8 wants to change the constitution and take away rights. Changing the constitution is a silly idea, and calling your point of view "pro-family" does not change that.
I voted yes. Keep traditional marriage between a man and a woman. If you guys want civil rights, go for them, but do not hijack marriage. Marriage is a commitment under God, a union where it is possible to "unite" and become one flesh. As far as civil benefits, call it a "civil partnership" or something.
I voted for proposition 8 not on religious grounds, I am about the most un-religious person alive but I think homosexuality is a crime against the laws of nature and the people who practice it are felons and should be so charged. You just can't legislate a lifestyle, sorry. But the big question is where do my rights end and others begin? If they have the right to marry, I should have the same rights not to hire, rent to, sell to, associate with or accept in any way. Now is that right?
Proposition is anti-gay. Stop pretending it isn't.
Ray has a convoluted idea of what equal rights before the law means. Ray also has a very 19th century view of 'natural law.' It should be clear to all by now that homosexuality is not a moral issue. It is a biological fact. You're gay or you aren't. Nobody wakes up one morning and says to himself "I think I'll be gay!"
Andy is plain wrong. Churches choose who they give their sacraments to.
Jason Jack sounds like he is arguing for a no vote on 8. And he is. If marriage is a government function, then it automatically becomes an issue of civil rights. And religion becomes irrelevant to deciding the question.
Personally, I'd be in favor of the state _only_ allowing civil unions (between man and woman, man and man, woman and woman). Let the churches do the marrying. That would solve the civil rights issue too.
Yes on 8 people are the threat to our democratic society. They insist on treating adult citizens as (morally) inferior, and claim they are justified in discrimination.
No to discrimination. No on 8.
This "Civil Right" was granted by the decision of 4 biased judges that were spoon fed the case by the most pro-gay agenda law firm in San Francisco. I'll leave it at that so I don't lose my job.
To take a yard sign from someone's property is plainly anti-American. I lost three John Kerry signs in 2004, before finally putting up a Veterans For Kerry sign, which survived for the last week of the election.
The last time my Kerry sign was run over by a truck I was out of town and my conservative across-the-street neighbor came over and set it back up, even though he was a Bush supporter. That’s being an American.
I've only lost one Obama and one Bob Hamilton sign so far this election cycle, but expect to loose more.
I did take down a "Yes on 8" sign that was placed on my property without my permission, and replaced it with a "No on 8", though I didn't have one before. We'll see how long it lasts.
As a person who happens to celebrate my 40th wedding anniversary this year, I strongly support gay marriage. I wish the government would get out of the marriage business altogether, and just issue civil union licenses - and leave it to the church to perform marriages. I think it would take a lot of the sting out of this civil rights issue.
I don't see how gay marriage threatens or diminishes my wedding or the institution of marriage. I also don't see how allowing gays the same rights as the rest of us makes being gay more attractive. If the only thing keeping you from having homosexual relations is that it's viewed as immoral or even illegal, you're probably really gay.
If you take a step back from the dogma, you may see that the laws against full rights for gays is not that different from being against full rights for red-heads.
The argument that churches will be forced to perform gay weddings is just silly - our constitution demands separation of church and state. Of course, if churches ask for tax dollars they will be obligated to follow the laws that prohibit discrimination. But, that’s not an obligation – churches can decide not to take tax dollars.
To Jon: I disagree with you that churches are not going to be forced to perform gay marriages. Explain this to me: in Orange County a doctor was sued because they would not perfom aritficial insemination for a lesbian couple due to their own religious and moral conviction. This was obnoxious on the part of the lesbians. If you do not like a doctor's services, find another doctor- there's plenty of them. Anyway, these lesbians won their case. I believe it is now being appealed. Because of "discrimination" laws, they won. This is so ridiculous. I see this as a pattern that a small group is going to walk on other's rights to make their point about "discrimination", while taking other's religious rights away.
|Frankie the butcher|
Marriage between a man and a woman is the common sense approach to this issue. There are civil unions of legal discovery (as court cases have determined) available to those (other than man and woman) who choose it based on legal interpretation. Those who choose this will have to ask for forgiveness on judgement day.
Come on people, leave it at that. Any further "exploration" of our civil rights opens the door for marriage of man and dog, women and goats, etc....get a grip people. Use your intellectual expression for something that matters like feeding the poor or the financial crisis.
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|John the Baptist|
to Leah: You say: "Marriage is a commitment under God." Does that mean that when atheists marry, they enter the contract under false pretenses? Or that they should not be allowed to marry?
|John the Baptist|
You say: "in Orange County a doctor was sued because they would not perfom aritficial insemination for a lesbian couple due to their own religious and moral conviction." You've missed the critical fact in this situation. The doctor was working in a clinic chartered to serve the public -- that means ALL the public, without discrimination. He could just as easily have decided not to serve atheists, or anyone not of his own religious denomination, or anyone blue-eyed. Discrimination by businesses that serve the public is illegal.
Thank you for mentioning full rights for redheads. I am one, and when I was a child I felt very discriminated against. (In case some misinterpret that remark, it was a joke.) Seriously, though, I agree that the argument that churches will be forced to perform same sex marriages is silly. Leah will have to explain to me how the government can force churches to do that.The government can't even keep churches from breaking the law by advocating for candidates from the pulpit !!!
I have a novel idea. How about Frankie you marry the one you wish and I'll do likewise. Problem solved! But no. Instead of debating the issue you choose to denigrate the debate. I guess gay people aren't sentient human beings but animals in your mind. Since you're so concerned about the slippery slope why don't you put YOUR marriage up to a public vote. I and my partner are now LEGALLY married and no one can say with certainty whether my legal marriage will be left valid if this proposition were to pass. How would you feel if you faced the prospect of being FORCEABLY DIVORCED. I would never do this to you! What ever happened to "do unto your neighbor...."? Why does my life and your religious views (about judgement day) trump my rights?
Interesting about "Forceably Divorced". Beyond the same areas in the Bible that preaches against homosexuality it also preaches against divorce. More space in the Bible is taken up talking against divorce, even Jesus discusses it and is against it, than gay activities. And with divorce at fifty percent of married couples, you would think that more people would be against divorce, or divorce couple remarrying, which is really what the Bible is against. So after Prop. 8 I think we should have a proposition against straight divorce couples getting married again. Its traditional.
Good points. In fact the bible says that if a man marries a divorced woman he is committing adultery - an offense that calls for being stoned to death.
Why don't we put that up for a vote - after all, it's in the bible.
Divorce is a real threat to marriage - gay and straight.
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To John the Baptist: Marriage between two athiests does not undermine the fact that marriage was created by God to be between a man and a woman. As far as discrimination goes, doctors should not be legally bound to perform inseminations on gay couples- this crosses the line of their rights. Why not find one of the many doctors that will perform this happily for the couple instead of tromping all over a doctor that does not wish to perform it? As far as I'm concerned, the state should stay out of it. You own a business, you call the shots.
To married woman: Because churches are under a certain tax code, they are under certain obligations to the state (like not endorsing a politcian- even though they sometimes do). A clergy person will get sued someday for not performing a religious ceremony for a gay couple based on discrimination. You watch! I think it is as ridiculous as you do.
To Leah: What about the same set of laws that prohibit discrimination on the basis of religion? I assume that, let's say, two Episcopalians walk into a Mormon Temple and demand to be married. If they are turned away because they are non-Mormon would they have legal recourse against the Mormon Church? Of course not! What nonsense!
To Bonsall guy: people sue for all sorts of nonsense reasons all the time! Especially CA- where we have the most sue happy people in the world. It is an atrocity. Anyways, this is getting away from the point of the article and argument- marriage is between a man and a woman!
YOU brought it up (the possibility of churches being sued) as a valid reason to vote for proposition 8 and now you just want me to ignore your statement and not challenge the absurdity of your reasoning? No!! And your statement that "marriage is between a man and a women" is wrong. I am now LEGALLY married to my same sex spouse. That is a fact. And you want to change that, potentially FORCING OUR DIVORCE AGAINST OUR WILLS and why? Because it contravenes YOUR particular religious beliefs? I ask you Leah what else do you feel the need to outlaw that may run contrary to your religious beliefs?
I never brought up the possibility of churches being sued AS a reason to vote yes for prop 8. I was merely stating that if it remains legal for a homosexual couple to marry then I can see a homosexual couple getting upset if a chosen church chose not to marry them. Heck, doctors are already getting sued for not inseminating them, why wouldn't someone get sued for not marrying them? Will it be successful? Probably not. Is it ridiculous? Yes. If it becomes illegal in California for you to be married, a divorce would not be forced upon you, your marriage would become invalid. The belief that marriage is between a man and a woman is not only a religious belief, but a principle belief that the foundation of marriage is a man and a woman. Do not force your beliefs on me by making marriage ok between the same sexes. Please have all your civil rights under state law- I am not arguing that, but keep marriage between a man and a woman. Let me ask you this, would polygamy be ok legally? Is it ok with you if 3 men fell in love and wanted to marry and have all their civil rights?
|Frankie the Butcher|
Hey Bonsall Guy,
I know the drill for you. It is also o.k. for brother to marry sister, son marry mother... Where does it end with you? All of humanity draws the line in the sand on all issues. Where do you draw the line on this one. Should my son marry his grandmother? I'm sorry there is pain in what I say, but you will have your day in front of the perfect one... I will say a little prayer for you.
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|John the Baptist|
to Leah: your concept that your freedom of religion extends to forcing your beliefs on someone else is truly frightening.
|John the Baptist|
to Frankie the Butcher: Regarding "for brother to marry sister, son marry mother." There is a valid scientific reason for objecting to marriage by close relatives. It is known to produce genetic havoc in their offspring.
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Interracial marriage was once illegal too.
Vote No on 8, even if you're straight.
Also, JasonJack said, "It is religious because marriage is based in religion, the concept of a bond between man and women made by religion is carried over to the state."
I guess we should stop allowing Atheists to marry.
The Quaker Religion, or Society of Friends as it is now called, believes that if you sit quietly and commune with God that he will speak to your heart. My God and heart says it is all right to marry the one I love and am loved back regardless of sexual orientation. Numerous religions may object but numerous religions are okay with it. Why pass a restrictive law on everybody just because your religeon is against it? Not the 'Freedom of religion' that I grew up with and this is a law that will affect those far beyond your circle of friends and acqaintences.
To John the Baptist: Your concept of wanting to accept such a huge fundamental change in society of what marriage is defined as is truly frightening!! There are people who are NOT religious who do not want the definition of marriage changed either. Don't you get it? Why do you think you are here and have life? Because a MAN and A WOMAN conceived you! You wouldn't even be here John if your dad was gay or your mom was gay- appreciate the fact that your parents chose marrying the opposite sex John- this decision produced your life. This decision produced ALL of our lives. Thank God for His grace.
To Leah; I don't mean to jump on you or gang up on you, but having read your note to John the Baptist on such a public forum I'd like to respond. "Huge fundamental changes in society" is what evolution is all about. I think it is God's way to make us better than our ancestors. Evolving from a slave keeping society was a huge fundamental change and caused war and death but wasn't it worth it? The change from women being second class citizens, no right to vote and fit only to keep the home and make and raise kids, to equals was evolutionary. Interacial marriages was a huge fundamental change to many. The point being is that there will always be people against what is good.
The fact that John, you, or I have life has nothing to do with marriage. Conception is a digression from Prop. 8 because there will always be heterosexuals concieving. I think your problem is that you cannot concieve that God made gays too. I believe He did. And therefore I belive they should be equal to heterosexuals. Should your religion dominate mine?
a few years back we the VOTERS of California voted AGAINST gay marriage. The judges that overturned the voters decision were wrong..anyway you look at it.
The judges that overturned the voters decision were no more wrong than the judges that let little black children go to an all white school. They were giving a minority a chance to become equal against the wishes of the majority of people of the time. Those judges were right then and our judges are right now.
|Frankie the Butcher|
Hey John the "Baptist",
My son's grandmother can not have kids...so do you feel it is o.k. for my son to marry his grandmother? How about my son to marry his sister or brother or both? you know, they are carefull....like others.
Hi Donald! Just a few things...
The civil war was ignited when sovereign states decided they wanted to separate from the Union, not necessarily because of slavery. The war resulted in good and bad- a slave free society (minus the slaves in the prison system), and unfortunately, a Federal government on steroids.
Women second class citizens? Fit only to keep the home and make and raise kids? If you think that women working full time and putting their children in daycare to be raised by the state is honorable, I differ. Keeping a home and raising children apart from this sick and dying society is the most courageous, and inspiring position for any person alive. A woman in the home is the most valuable job in America, priceless to her husband and children... a selfless and noble job. (I fly on a cold metal jet for a living- trust me I see the value of a woman at home!)
I sadly disagree when you say that God made gays. Men and women were made in the image of God, that when they unite as a family, they should personify His glory.
Abomination? I believe that was the word He used for the subject at hand. I know I won't hear the end of that one, but I could not keep myself from relaying the message that has somehow been forgotten in the Word.
Lastly- I know that gay people want to be treated equal. Truthfully, I was not against gay marriage until a week ago when I realized that gay marriage was being taught in schools to kindergarten children- babies. That is pathetic. I figured the government should stay out of it right? Not exactly- allowing gays to marry has given the government the false idea that it is okay to teach babies about different sex life options. Unforgivable.
"ONE NATION UNDER GOD"
Are we or aren't we?
To Donald: I disagree that being a homosexual is making you better than your ancestors. Also, the Civil War had less to do with slavery than people realize. And, to be honest, I do not know that it was worth it. Women abdicating their responsiblities of keeping the home and raising their children is neither praiseworthy nor something to revel about. Blacks marrying whites, still male and female, is still marriage wether the people of those times freaked about it or not. Two males or two females are not supposed to and cannot join to form a union. It is bizarre to me that you cannot see how marriage has anything to do with having children. I do believe that God created homosexual people. I just do not believe that God created people homosexuals. We are all under our Creator's authority wether we believe we are or not.
The wrath of God will struck among all. By then it will be too late and only then will you know that there is a God and what will you do? You will pray and ask for forgiveness and then you will see your evil ways. May God be merciful upon your soul and the lives of your familes.
It seems that the "vote no on prop 8 people" are so threatened that they feel they must steal my "vote yes on prop 8" yard sign. Says so much about the opposition to prop! At least they can't steal my opinion or my yes on prop 8 vote.
Well put Leah. Thank you for rewording... the good Lord did not make people homosexuals.
Like he didn't make me a thief, alcoholic, drug addict, or whatever else I or anyone might battle with. We all have our own battles, but that doens't mean we quit fighting and tell the world to accept our flaws at their expense!
As far as the "wrath of God", I personally know Him to be very gracious, that is, to people that confess with an honest heart and seek guidance.
Oh, where I would be without His grace!! =)
Just a small quick point. the judges who overturned the previous proposition did so because it was unconstitutional.
Which may eventually happen with this proposition by the US Supreme Court, if it passes.
Courts overturn laws and propositions all the time, if held to be unconstitutional - going against an individual's rights.
This is America's protection of the individual from the tyranny of the majority, which is a vital element of American law.
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LA, although the civil war was ignited by the states seperating from the union, and the match was probably Lincoln's election, the fuel was in a good part due to the issue of slavery and the economics of it for the south and the revulsion of it for the north.
When women had no vote, and were in many instances throughout history kept as breeders so farm and family or kingdoms were to be kept in the family, then yes they were second class citizens. Given the rights of women in some mideastern countries today I would claim they were second class citizens also. My point was that equality should be expected whomever you are and especially in the 21st century.
There are many subjects in the bible that seem to earn the term abomination. Remarrying after a divorce is one, punishable the same way homosexuals should be. So how about starting a proposition against straight couples from remarrying? No, I would not be in favor of that either.
To say that God did not make people homosexuals is implying he gave them a choice. Did you choose your heterosexualality. Given the wide range of events in a person's life I would fully admit that a few GLB people chose to be GLB, but so what? It is their choice and thier right to choose. And since homosexuality is not a crime they should have the same rights as others. Scientists and naturalists agree that homosexuality happens in the animal kingdom and we are animals; perhaps with a special blessing from God but still animals. Penguin colonies in the artic, if it hasn't melted away yet, usually contain a few birds that prefer their own sex to that of the opposite sex. That is proven. Some swans have exclusively long lasting same sex relationships. Do you really believe they choose this way of life?
If you were originally going to vote no on Prop 8 then I would urge you to do so. I believe the golden rule that Jesus gave us would serve as a good guide. And then go give the school system hell to change their curriculum. Gay people should not be punished further by how others use this new freedom of theirs.
Leah, I belive that any union between consenting adults should have the full protection of the law. When I see drug dealers, theives, murderers, rapists, in prison and out, having the civil rights to marry, I cannot help think that GLB firefighters, police officers, military personel, those who put their lives on the line for us should be denied the same rights given criminals. It is inequitable. I just want them to have the same rights as you have. Same sex unions should be given them despite religious beliefs in right or wrong.
children should not have to be taught this in schools
neither should pastors be forced to marry two people
people should have respect for their beliefs
and if this prop does get "no"
i can tell you worse things will happen than just stealing signs.
sorry if i offended anyone
but these are MY opinions
you dont have to agree
Donald: I understand what you're saying, but when you said "The change from women being second class citizens, no right to vote and fit only to keep the home and make and raise kids..." you are undermining the most important job in America which is, indeed, to raise your own children. I joined the military and have been treated equally to all the men beside me, but I will be separating so that I can raise my unborn child and support my husband 100%... the most honorable thing I can do. However, you are right; women should have the right to vote, work, etc. Abandoning a household and family is not the way to go about it which is what all fulltime working mothers do when they have small children. I see it EVERYDAY.
Abomination? Homosexuality, according to the Bible, is still an abomination regardless of whatever things you can think of to include with it.
Yes- I chose to be heterosexual just like I have chosen to do everything else in my life! Free will!! I don't personally include myself in the animal kingdom so if you feel it's ok to behave like a penguin, or whatever other animal you named,that is your CHOICE.
The school system will teach whatever the people accept in society... and even things that aren’t accepted! Gay marriage is one thing that comes to mind! 61.4% voted NO! Teachers will teach what they are told by the system that has no conscience.
I have learned from this Proposition that you can’t bargain with the devil. Give him an inch, and he takes your children too. Forget that. Yes on Prop 8.
It's so sad to see how far our society is deteriorating. It's come to the point that now so many people can't even define marriage as it was intended to be. The family is deteriorating in our country and when the family deteriorates so does society. I feel sorry for all of you who think marriage can be defined as a same sex union. It's a ridiculous argument to say that this is a civil right issue. Being born black, or hispanic or white is not the same as being born gay or lesbian. What's the difference ? Being gay or lesbian is an action.
i love how none of the blackmailing that has occurred from the yes on 8 campaign towards people donating to no on 8 is being exposed on websites like this.
i also love how no one seems to recognize that marriage is a thing of the government. it's not religious. you get tax ride-offs when married. want to make it religious? make it so you no longer get tax ride-offs, change your names, can get married by a judge, the fact that marriage licenses exist. make it so people of religions other than yours can get married, and make it so that people who believe in different religions can get married either.
marriage is a societal institution as is the family, education, media, the military, etc. societal institutions change as culture changes. our culture is changing. you can learn to accept it, or you can fight it and be left behind.
as far as doctors go, the doctor's job is to do right by his or her patient. it's not the doctor's job to tell a patient she needs to go elsewhere. it's the exact same thing as japan outlawing birth control but allowing viagra and pharmacies in the us denying birth control to woman.
who i want to spend the rest of my life with isn't the government's business or the fundamentalist's business.
you're sitting here telling me that i have to abide by a god that i may or may not believe in. separation of church and state is vital to this country. who is to say that when the church and state merge (if they do), that it'll be a church that believes in the things you do.
no on prop 8. everyone deserves equality whether you like them or not.
Ok, I've changed my mind. I do not believe that homosexuals should have the civil rights of a civil union. "Marriage" has never been an option in my opinion, but I was considering civil rights. Upon further thought, opening up "civil rights" for homosexuals, compromises marriage. Thank you Marty for reminding us of this. Compromising marriage is opening a can of worms. Then we will have roommates that want "civil rights" and ANY two people (or more) together who want their rights too. It is ridiculous. I am sorry, but homosexuals are living an alternative lifestyle of their choosing and marriage should absolutely NOT be re-defined for alternative lifestyles. I feel no anger for homosexuals, only sadness. I forgot the name, but I know of a big movement where homosexuals can get the help they need if they so desire. If homosexuals want to continue living their lives the way they are, fine, but please do not infringe on marriage. This is not just a religious belief, this is a belief in the foundation of society. Remember that the beautiful, miracle of life can occur when a man and woman unite in marriage. Most of us are here because of it.
LA, congrats on the baby. My hopes are that he/she is happy and healthy.
You are picking and choosing your abominations. Your're giving one a wink of acceptability and damning the other. Wrong! Wrong!Wrong! If one abomination, in your eye, can get married than so should the other one, according to the California constitution.
If you prefer to think that you chose to be heterosexual, then it is only fair that those who do no harm to others and made a different choice in the matters of adult and willing mates should have the same legal rights as you. And I am afraid you are stuck in a category of animal, vegetable or minerals. Having joined the army during the Viet Nam era and afterwords working for the state of Ca. I have worked with those who seemed to tend more toward the vegetables, but I doubt you are one of them.
You are the one who votes for school superintendants. Do you know how your contestants feel about this subject? And then you can go over their heads to state officials up to the govenor, or even put it on a ballot.
So now GLB folk are devils? No, they're the same as all of us, Children of God. (Matt. vii. 12): "All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them."
No picking and choosing on my part, just using simple words straight from the Holy Bible. Never did I say the Bible allows one abomination and not another, nor did I say that I think one is ok and not another. When did I "wink" at anything considered by the Bible to be an abomination? If you are referring to your comment about divorce, I didn't disagree with you. The Bible spells out clearly when it is ok to divorce.
=) veggies- yes many people have a hard time thinking for themselves if that is what you are saying. That's everywhere, not just the military. Your 2nd paragraph is just funny to me.
When you accept evil, even just a little bit, it eventually does what it came to do and that is corrupt completely.
I'm sorry, I cannot vote into law something that will confuse small children. They are innocent, and are confused by this topic for a reason. It sounds like you agree- that this should not be taught in schools?
No I don't think that gay people are devils... nor do I think drug addicts, alcoholics, thiefs. etc are devils.
Thank you for allowing me to clarify that also.
Your bible verse is nice- and I am doing unto others as I would hope they would do unto me. I am trying to protect our society from degradation. If I was doing something wrong, and asking others to condone it, I would hope that someone might remind me of the truth.
27"and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error." (Rom. 1:27)
A society that accepts something morally wrong as normal will not last.
You say you hope you are protecting society from what YOU consider is degradation. Others, gay and straight, states and nations, don't see it as a degrading of society . We only see you practicing religious discrimination. Yes, I know, you think we are trying to discriminate against marriage. But that is not true. No more than a Catholic demands a Jew to join his religion, or a Jew demanding a law passed that Muslims have to believe in their belief. You are demanding we believe in your way and furthermore, passing a law to ensure it. It won't work forever. Discrimination is still discrimination and discrimination is the name of the lipstick that you are putting on this pig of a proposition.
Also quoting Paul is not convincing to me. Paul was a fanatical Jew and when converted to Christianity became a fanatical Christian. I don't trust fanatics of any religion or politics.
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it with religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal
I'm amazed that folk are so proud of being discriminatory and wanting to write legal discrimination into the California Constitution. FACT: same-sex marriage hasn't changed anybody's traditional marriage nor will it ever. And, much to the chagrin of the haters who support Prop 8, passage of Prop 8 will not make homosexuals go away.
Too bad for you.
Jerry Sanders, the Republican mayor of San Diego, supports gay marriage.
He turned his back on campaign promises to oppose gay marriage in an emotional press conference:
"I have close family members and friends who are a member of the gay and lesbian community. Those folks include my daughter Lisa, as well as members of my personal staff.
"I want for them the same thing that we all want for our loved ones—for each of them to find a mate whom they love deeply and who loves them back; someone with whom they can grow old together and share life’s experiences.
"And I want their relationships to be protected equally under the law. In the end, I couldn’t look any of them in the face and tell them that their relationship—their very lives—were any less meaningful than the marriage I share with my wife Rana."
We wept at the press conference as he read his statement.
Like other conservatives, when the issue hits home (Sanders’ daughter is gay), they have a change of heart and see gay marriage as a matter of equal rights.
Ok, this word "discrimination" has become a monster in and of itself for all those who decry: "Discrimination!" This word is defined in the dictionary as follows, "making or recognizing differences and distinctions" and "the ability to make fine distinctions" and "making a difference in favor of or against". Well, not such a bad word after all? There is a difference between men and women and a difference between a marriage between a man and a woman and a "marriage" between two men and two women. I hope we can all see the "distinction" in those. I'd also like to share some information I received on a bulletin that was eloquent...
"Since the dawn of time, marriage has been understood by people of virtually every faith and culture to be the union of a man and a woman. Marriage predates government. Its unique place in civilization is both derived from God and inherently natural to man. Marriage is intrinsic to a stable, flourishing and loving society. It provides the ideal relationship to commit men and women to each other, to provide for the procreative continuation of civilization and to raise children with both a mother and father. The sanctity of marriage is worth defending and protecting."
And I was a little confused by this part...maybe some of you can clarify-
"Proposition 8 does not take away any rights or benefits from gay or lesbian domestic partners. Under California's domestic partner laws (Family Code Section 297.5) they have rights and benefits identical to spouses." I thought that this whole debate was about homosexuals having equal rights?
Discrimination applies to race, gender and age- things uncontrollable.
The only demands I can see here are homosexuals wanting to unite as a man and woman have for thousands of years.
Picking and choosing- Sir, I believe our debate ended when you decided to dismantle the Bible to support your case. You can't pick and choose as you earlier stated.
Well, it looks like our debate has been very productive! We have both made our points for others to read.
Unfortunately we have such zealots that are against prop 8 from what ive seen all over that they are willing to become violent and vandalize property of those who support prop 8. Unfortunately i cannot even express my own religious views in fears of being pegged and intolerant bigot. That is exactly what is happening and what will continue to increase if prop 8 fails. and wether they wanna admit it or not churches WILL lose their rights to not marry gays and christian adoption agencies will lose their right to not adopt to gays. soon enough churches that dont comply will be seen as hate groups. hate to break it to people but marriage was originally a religious creation! government butted in later. I have nothing against gays and lesbians, go ahead and be together i have nothing against that. but please dont impose your beliefs on everyone else
You are demanding we believe in your way,live life the way you demand, and furthermore, passing a law to ensure it. Sounds like discrimination to me.
|a 12 year old|
i think it is wrong to discriminate lokk at the civil war it started out of a problem like this i know people will say im just a kid but why does it matter i say no on 8 how does it affect your lives if these people are able to be married to the people they love what if people tried to pass a law saying a man and a woman couldnt marry i know its not likely but think about how you would feel and im extremely sad because i cant vote so think before you vote
Well said Oeni. Marriage was and is a religious covenant created to be between a man and a woman. Gays have their state, civil rights through CA state Family Code 297.5.
Oeni, you are being pegged as a 'bigot' and 'intolerant' because your views are that of.. surprise, a bigot. Churches that promote this bigotry are only a few steps shy of being a hate group; Good job on making the connection.
Theres also something sadly ironic about complaining about 'imposing your beliefs on everyone', in support of binding your religious beliefs to law. There seems to be very little care about the 'civil union' aspect of this, and everyone is up in arms over their religions views being violated (the ones that should be imposed on everyone, of course).
Somehow, I don't think that 'pro-8' people are being more violently oppressed versus the violent discrimination that gay people have had to endure for a long time.
These 'prayer circles' and other lunacy really make me believe that a majority of the fervent supporters of this bill are not mentally fit adults. I'm not a fan of blanket statements, but doesn't seem to fail on this topic.
"a 12 year old", I am sad to see such a young impressionable mind already so confused and in such acceptance of a way of life that is so contrary to natural and moral law. I am glad you cannot vote it will give you time to learn and understand the things that are influencing you in your life and hopefully you will be able to discern good moral judgment from bad in the years to come. My prayers are with you as with all the younger generations in this country.
The 12 year old in question has unfortunately been a victim of the moral relativism in this country. It is very sad. I have a question for the 12 year old....aren't you glad your parents chose heterosexual marriage? That unification produced you and gave you life. Yes on 8 is saying yes to life, yes to families and yes to children. If it weren't for current technology reducing parenthood to "charity" and "donations", ALL children would be as a result of a man and woman uniting. Yes on 8, yes to life, yes to children, yes to families.
"Businesses with benefit plans controlled by California law must provide equal packages to opposite and same-sex married couples starting June 17, according to the California Department of Fair Employment and Housing.
"This mandate will be effective as long as the employer falls under the jurisdiction of the Fair Employment and Housing Act, which, for example, does not include religious employers or companies with fewer than five employees. "
From the Bakersfield Californian.
Obviously , there were legal problems with legal domestic partnerships. This was just one.
This is suppose to be a legal issue but the religious right has kidnapped it and made it into a moral issue. The legal issue was that when you have a second class of rules and laws for one set of society and another for different set, then you had inequality. That inequality according to the judges that supported same sex marriage "Giving a different name, such as "domestic partnership," to the "official family relationship" of same-sex couples imposes "appreciable harm" both on the couples and their children, the court said."
To Leah: the doctor that was sued for denying AIF to the lesbians (I am no on 8 but I think the hot coffee legal brigade needs to give it a rest) his lawyer should have pointed out that he has the same rights as a doctor that denies voluntary sterilization to non gay couples because of his own religious beliefs.
Comment Continued : The comment above was written from the same location.
That's a rediculous question for the 12 year old, aren't you glad your parents chose a heterosexual marriage? People don't choose to be gay or straight. It's just what is, it is what has always been, it's just now within the past 50 years or so that it has become more obvious. My marriage is not going to affect yours, or your home life or you religious life. You say you have no hatred towards us, but you show it in your words on saying we shouldn't be allowed to use the word marriage. You show it while you're standing infront of your churches in Fallbrook and everywhere else holding up your vote yes on 8 signs, with your children in hand. You show it by sending your children to the camps that "fix" us. God loves all creatures.
Leah, you show absolute hatred for homosexuals, I am not one, but I have two brothers that are. And I love them dearly as do I their husbands. And each of them have two children through surrogacy. I see more love for those children than I do with most hetero parents for their children.
To Mark and Ryan: I show nor feel hatred towards homosexuals. I know homosexuals and feel no hatred towards them, only sadness. I am thinking you resort to saying I have "hatred" because it is easier to say that than to argue my points. It is easier to just call me a "hater" than to really argue some fundamentals. Because if I'm just a "hater" then you can just sign me off and not take any responsibility for any of your choices. How is that a ridiculous question...aren't you glad your parents chose heterosexual marriage? If they had not, this child would not be here- it's actually very simple. I do believe that homosexuality is a choice- it may not be concious, but every action we take is a choice. Just like labeling me a "hater", labeling yourselves as "not having a choice" abdicates responsibility.
As far as surrogacy is concerned, I find it horrible. Babies should be suckling the breasts of their mother and loved equally by her as their father.
So far there are no test-tube babies so all children are the result of man and woman uniting, one way or another. Maybe in your perfect world children would be as you wish. But in this imperfect world there are a surplus of children and over a 100,000 same sex couples provide children with love, home, food and dignity. Dignity is important for the child from a same or opposite sex couple and dignity is what you take away from that child when you say his/her thier parents cannot marry. You make him/her different, less valueable in the eyes of thier classmates. Yes on Prop 8 only makes an imperfect world even less perfect.
Donald, I do not live in a perfect world. We live in the same world. We just make different choices in how we live our lives with different end results. This "surplus" of children you are referring to should only include adopted children, not children derived from sperm donors or surrogates. Dignity is defined as "quality of character or ability that wins the respect and high opinion of others." Just because something becomes "legal" does not mean it will earn high opinion. What is going to make a child different is that they do not have a mother (in male homosexual cases...I have not found any lesbians debating on this site as of yet...interesting note). And that the mother who carried him/her in her womb handed him/off to two fathers. This situation doesn't sound odd to you? Nature would never allow for this- it is current technology and our free will to make choices that allows this. These kids when they grow up and can ask some questions are going to have some serious ones. Kids that are adopted out have enough questions, imagine the situation I described, the questions these adults will have one day. As they should.
I have such mixed feeling on this election. While im estatic that Obama won its very bitter sweet. Im very ashamed and disgusted with CA that they could vote to take away the rights of a certain group. Im even more disgusted that the majority of african American voters voted yes. Oh how quickly we forget...and the cycle continues the abused become the abuser.
I'm ashamed to live in CA im disgusted with the 52%. This is a sad day in CA in America that people can cheer about the rights of a group being removed. Congratulations yes on 8. I just hope that next time its not one of your rights that are up for being taken away. I wouldnt wish this feeling on anyone.
Because I believe that marriage sould remain the same as it has always been does not make me a homophobe.
Lately it has become popular to "Christian bash". It is accepted on TV, in magazines, newspapers, movies, and in public. My rights as a Christian are threatened in every new voting cycle.
I always feel like I need to keep my faith a secret in public, at work, and in conversations with friends. I hear a lot of people's ridicule and misunderstanding of the Christian faith, and I see a lot of sensorship and distortion whenever Christianity is presented by non-christians.
In the political atmosphere of today I see a lot of smoke screens and hidden agendas. The "No on Prop 8" campaign had smoke all around it. There is a different issue than human rights and equality at hand, and it is obvious.
I understand if others feel that their rights are being taken away, and I try to understand when others fail to see the rights they already have. I try to understand when people are persuaded to think in a bad direction because it is popular, or they follow the half-truths.
Some of the best lies have the most truth in them.
There is a seperate agenda, and all this bantor is the smoke screen. Believe what you will, and we will continue to disagree. I will disagree with respect, and I will see my opponents when my rights as a Christian are threatened again.
I'm sorry Jojo but regardless of your beliefs, you need to respect the fact that the citizens voted how they did.
To all opposing the prop- What do you want, the government to step in everytime the people vote and over rule it?
1. Being Catholic or Christian does not grant you certain rights.
2. Prop 8 is strictly religion based and should have never made its way onto the ballot.
3. The only reason we "lost" the right to get married is because religion stepped it's pretty little way into the government and laws were made making it illegal for gays to marry.
4. Letting religion base your opinion on a proposition hurts more people than you can imagine, especially when it's to take someones rights away.
5. The fact that you're teaching your children it's acceptable to take rights away from only certain people but not all, is absolutely horrible.
6. The word marriage is changing year after year. 200 years ago, a man literally owned his wife, that changed. An African-American couldn't marry a white person, that changed. Change is meant to happen, if it wasn't, this country would be set back centuries.
7. Gay people are gay, there's not changing that. The only ones who claim to have been "Saved" are those who are conforming due to their surroundings, and are wanting to be accepted by those who verbally, mentally and physically beat them down.
That list could go on and on. Fact is, Prop 8 is teaching our future generations that discriminating against certain groups of people is okay. Teaching them that taking rights away from only certain people is okay. And teaching them that it is acceptable for religion to come into play when it comes to writing, or changing laws and civil rights. That prop should have never made its way onto the ballot, it's discriminatory and has now hurt hundreds of thousands of people. Marriage shouldn't be taught about in school, but taking people rights away is just wrong.
1. RIGHT TO VOTE.
2. RIGHT TO VOTE ANYWAY WE WANT, RELIGIOUS OR NOT.
3. RIGHT TO VOTE ANYWAY WE WANT,
RELIGIOUS OR NOT... REGARDLESS OF WHO GETS THEIR FEELINGS HURT.
4. GAY PEOPLE HAVE ALL THE RIGHTS THAT ANYONE ELSE DOES- FIGURE IT OUT.
5. THE ONLY THING YOU ARE LOOKING FOR IS ACCEPTANCE AND THAT ISN'T NECESSARILY A "GOD GIVEN RIGHT".
6. THERE IS NO LAW STATING CITIZENS HAVE TO "ACCEPT GAY PEOPLE" THAT I KNOW OF. MAYBE YOU CAN TEACH ME SOMETHING.
Comment #85 | Thursday, Nov 13, 2008 at 9:50 am
John the baptist - you are ignorant
Patrick - marriage is between one man and one woman
Ryan - you are very ignorant
the republic of California is democratic, the people have spoken and Gov. Terminator is a pansy
Comment #86 | Friday, Nov 14, 2008 at 4:25 pm
California, as far as I know, is still part of the United States and we all have First Amendment Rights to freedom of speech and to vote based on our own feelings no matter how you arrived at them. The crux of the problem is this (as stated by Justice Baxter in his dissenting opinion on the of the California Supreme Court changing the constitution of the state without proper authority)
"But a bare majorityof this court, not satisfied with the pace of democratic change, now aburtly forestalls that process and subtitutes, BY JUDICIAL FIAT,ITS OWN SOCIAL POLICY VIEWS FOR THOSE EXPRESSED BY THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES.Undeterred by the strong weight of state and federal law and authority, THE MAJORITY INVENTS A NEW CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT, IMMUNE FROM THE ORDINARY PROCESS OF LEGISLATIVE CONSIDERATION. The majority finds that our Constitution suddenly demands no less than a permanent redefinition of marriage, REGARDLESS OF THE POPULAR WILL." The popular will of the people of this state has again been shown (to join the other 48 states of our country that still only recognize marriage as between a man and a woman) that we would like to continue to have the same definition of marriage that was established in 1849 by the state of California. The DPA has granted the domestic partnerships and marriages the same legal standing, granting both heterosexual and homosexual couples a societal recognition of their lifelong commitment. This parity is does not violate the Constitution, it is in keeping with it. The traditional definition of marriage should not be unconstitutional and should continue to be upheld by the Courts as the will of the people.
Comment #87 | Sunday, Nov 16, 2008 at 9:30 am
No matter what there will never be a win, win here. Both props. should of written their wants or needs differently where people could all agree, but that will never happen, would it.
Comment #88 | Sunday, Nov 16, 2008 at 9:30 am
Religious extremist nutbags, you can keep pushing against gay people, but your days as the "guiding light" of the right-wing of the Republican party are numbered. Your views will soon be swept away into the dustbin of history along with slavery, anti-miscegeny laws, and witch burning.
Comment #89 | Sunday, Nov 16, 2008 at 9:31 am
Proposition 8_The Great Debate.
Division 2.5 of the Califonia Family Code defines the rights for Domestic partners.
Section 297.5 states, "297.5. (a) Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights,protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same
responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law, whether they derive from statutes, administrative regulations,court rules,government policies, common law, or any other provisions or sources of law, as are granted to and imposed upon spouses."
If one conitues to read, it states that even in death, domestic partners have all the same rights as spouses. When gays say we are discriminating, I say "You're right". When they say we are taking away their rights, I say "You're wrong". Everyone discriminates. I decide on who I hang around with based on what I like about the person. I also don't hang around certain people because of my dislikes. If my point of views come from the Bible, they are just as valid as someone's point of view if it doesn't come from the Bible. Gays want their lifestyle to be accepted by society: but majority of the voting society doesn't want to.
There is no comparison between what is happening to gays and what happened to the African American citizens in the past. Afican Americans could only go to certain schools and could not "live with" or marry one out of their own race. Gays can live with whim they please. Their partners can put them on their health insurance and are allowed all the benefits in probate court.
Once again....Everyone discriminates. even YOU who are reading this.
Gays want their LIFESTYLE to be accepted by society
I don't agree with their "lifestyle", but I still love them as people. I hate the sin, not the sinner.
|Frankie the Butcher|
Comment #90 | Monday, Nov 17, 2008 at 9:19 am
Gretchy, Mark, Jo Jo, Ryan, Jack Attack, for you, the world seems to be a place where you can push the extreme, whats next, marriage between a grandmother and grandson, woman and a dog. Wake up people, push some other envelope, get over it and push for the legal rights you are looking for like survivor benefits and insurance benefits. Your choice to choose un natural lifestyles is your own business and you will have to explain it on judgement day...I choose to explain it to my children as an unnatural choice and not advocate it as acceptable. I feel sorry for you and your choices and will say a little prayer for you and hope "he" forgives you.
Comment #91 | Friday, Nov 28, 2008 at 11:07 am
Jack Attack darling,
Maybe you can join the conversation when you begin to rationalize instead over- generalize.
Everyone has their oppinion, but your last post was quite ridiculous.
"Religious, extremist nutbags?"
It hardly deserves a response.
Comment #92 | Monday, Dec 22, 2008 at 9:12 am
Prop 8 does not take away rights, it simply returns to the level of rights that existed before the state supreme court tried to invent a new right. Marriage was created by God and can only apply to one man and one woman. Deal with it.
Comment #93 | Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 at 10:02 am
I cannot wait until all of you crazy, change fearing bigots eat your words when we receive our equal rights just as every other minority unfairly treated in the past.
Remember, those who opposed "traditional marriage" between two people of the same race gave the same arguments you all are giving right now.
It is going to happen. Justice will reign and we will finally be treated the same as every other tax-paying American.
I just hope that those of you who did vote for inequality repent and appologize to your fellow neighbors.
Comment #94 | Saturday, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:58 am
My favorite argument for prop 8 is when prop 8 supporters think their religious freedom is being taken away just because it's not being forced on everyone else. Jeez, you guys, grow up. When interracial marriage was legalized in 1967, no one was forced to agree with it. No one is forced to agree with or like gay marriages, either. And no one will be sued for not performing a gay wedding. People who perform marriages have every right to refuse to marry anyone if they don't believe in it. That's how it's always been. I'd like for someone to tell me one person who was sued for refusing to marry an interracial couple after this was legalized. There were and still are plenty of people who refuse to. That is their right. The only rights that are in jeopardy here are those of the gay community.
Also, being able to have kids is not what makes a good marriage. Gay couples aren't the only couples who can't reproduce together biologically. Infertile couples can't either. And some couples just don't want children. Marriage isn't about having kids. And it's not about religion. It is a legally binding contract between two people. Two human beings. For many people, marriage is a religious thing, but it is not inherently religious. Religion is a personal twist that's incorporated into many ceremonies, but this isn't always the case, nor does it have to be. Just like some weddings have a blue and green color scheme, not all weddings do.
To all those of you who oppose gay rights, you are entitled to your beliefs. Your rights aren't up to vote. Lucky you. And I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm just pointing out some aspects of the pro prop 8 argument that are completely false and unfounded.
Comment #95 | Friday, Mar 6, 2009 at 9:58 am
it's like telling black people they can only marry black people or christians that they have to pay extra taxes. you would be screaming at that discrimanation, wouldn't you!
|For covenantal Marriage|
Comment #96 | Monday, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:26 am
Kathy, your logic does not jive. Two black people marrying (a man and a woman) is still an apple and an orange no matter the color. Two men marrying is like two apples or two oranges. They are made the same. No screaming here. You anti prop 8 people seem to have bigger lungs than we do. That is because we stand on principle, not emotion.
|aging lesbian says:|
Comment #97 | Sunday, May 10, 2009 at 4:24 pm
I have followed these comments for some time and have decided to add my two cents. 1st I became a mother by choosing to have sex with a gay male. We jointly raised a beautiful daughter, who at six asked us what did gay mean. Our definition was that the dictionary defined it as being happy. At 14 we were asked what would we do if she decided to be gay. We told her we didn't believe it was a decision. You are either attracted to the opposite sex or you are not. She told us she wanted to be straight and grew up to marry and have 3 equally beautiful children. All three turned out to be straight. One of those children had a baby girl last year. Now it must be pointed out that my daughter was was raised by my partner and I (together now for 40+ years) and she knows her father was murdered in a gay bashing in New Orleans where we lived at the time. Girl grew up knowing she was loved and cherished regardless of the fact that she had two mommies and two daddies and for that matter said she was luckier than any kid she knew because she ALWAYS has some one to go to. Her children grew up knowing that she loved them even after their father beat my daughter and them and was discharged dishonorably from the Marines. My youngest grandaughter stood on Main Street during the elections holding up signs with 50 other students from Fallbrook High School saying "Stop the Hate". She was not asked to - it was her CHOICE to voice her opinion. By the way, she has decided that God made her straight. Her point of view is that the Bible was written by MAN, and it has been proven that books were left out of the Bible, like the Book of Mary. She learned by taking religious studies that people back then were oral, that is to say that the bible was written down by scribes who were given the chapters orally and in transcription much was lost and changed and left out. Then we can go to Henry the 8th who changed what was printed as the Bible even more to suit his own needs. And was driven insane by syphilis. This Bible from the Church of England is what most people study now. My youngest grandaughter poses the question, "If God is a God of Love, and He knows our minds and hearts, then He knows our hearts and Love is Love.
As for children being raised by gays and lesbians, we have taken care of over 70 children in our foster care. At least 1/3 were "throw-aways". Teenage girls forced to give up their babies by their parents because of the shame brought on the family due to unwed pregnancies. Where is the Christian love in that? When straight people take on the unwanted children of the world who may be damaged due to cruelty of abuse, when the pro-8 voters take in the babies that are not wanted because of so-called moral values over unwanted pregnancies, at that point you can tell me I am wrong to be with the person I have adored for more than 40 years. And by the way, our foster children, our adopted children and our bio children would disagree with you, children don't NEED a mother and a father, they need love, understanding, ethics of hard work will help you become all you can be. Love of God (or Goddess if you are Pagan), love of country, family (in whatever form that may be) and love of self. And one more point, as far as having father and mother- many women have raised children on their own and those kids have grown up to be remarkable, amazing citizens, let's see, oh yeah PRESIDENT OBAMA would be in that number.
Brightest Blessings and I will pray for you and your intolerance.
Comment #98 | Tuesday, May 12, 2009 at 4:24 pm
I am sorry you feel that way short and simple. But I have this to say to you. Are we wrong because we pay taxes, raise children, work, play and in short do everything hetro couples do? Is it because we are with a person of the same sex?
You might want to check the old laws still on the books. Somewhere there is one that proclaims that having sex in any position except the "missionary" is illegal and immoral. Yet it is safe to presume that many couples do enjoy each other in many ways.
I said that to say that if your opinion is based on the fact that gays and lesbians do have sex with a member of the same sex, then you also are wrong for ways that you might choose to enjoy your partner in THE PRIVACY OF YOUR OWN HOME.
I basically don't think it is anyone's business what I do in my own home, and with whom as long as I am a legal law-abiding citizen. And if I am the afore mentioned person, I should be entitled to ALL of the rights of every other person included in that number.
Comment #99 | Friday, May 29, 2009 at 11:49 am
Being Gay is OKAY.
In the Bible, being gay is a Sin But
i Hate the Sin not the Sinner.
Comment #100 | Friday, Aug 7, 2009 at 1:16 pm
marriage- is between a man and a woman- period.
If you choose the same sex for a partner- fine dont flaunt it- and just understand, live together, shop together or whatever you do, we the people will not tolerate the sanctity of marriage to be defaced,
Adam and eve- not Adam and Steve.
Comment Continued : The comment above was written from the same location.
Comment #101 | Saturday, Aug 8, 2009 at 10:32 am
I forgot to add that same sex marriage is also now legal in Spain since I believe 2007. !Viva Espana!
Comment #102 | Saturday, Aug 8, 2009 at 10:32 am
Wake up and join the 21st century. Same sex marriage is now legal in Holland, Belgium, Norway, Sweden, South Africa and Canada. In France religious marriages are not recognized by the state. Everyone who wishes to be recognized as married by the state must obtain a license (Pacte Civil de Solidarite). These licenses have now been made open to both heterosexual and homosexual couples. Last year a same sex marriage bill was only narrowly defeated in the Japanese Diet and another one came within 3 votes of passing in the Australian parliament. Portugal defeated a same sex marriage bill by a vote of 202 to 28 in 2008. This year it was only defeated by 127 to 103. Several other European countries are currently considering similar bills.
Here in the US same sex marriage is now the law in Massachusetts (since 2004), Connecticut, Iowa, Vermont and Maine. The Republican governor of New Hampshire several months ago signed into law a bill to legalize same sex marriage beginning this January in that state. Same sex marriage bills are advancing in New York and New Jersey as well as elsewhere. And as everyone knows here in California same sex marriage was defeated by 63% of the voters in 2002 (The Knight initiative) and 6 years later in 2008 opposition had dropped to 52%. Every poll on this topic shows that older voters are against marriage equality and younger voters are for marriage equality. The demographic handwriting is on the wall, it's not a matter of if but when. In the not so distant future we will look back on this debate with all of the disgust and unfathomable incredulity that we now have when seeing old footage of George Wallace standing in the schoolhouse door. Cheers!!
|the real deal|
Comment #103 | Tuesday, Jan 26, 2010 at 5:44 pm
this is scary. First its ok to be gay, then they attack an institution that god clearly created for Man and Woman. I dont see a grey area in the bible that does not clearly state what marriage was meant to be. I am not above god to challenge the validity of his message and no one has the right to do so either. I am a god fearing man and that is what keeps our society in check.. If Gay is OK then why not sex between humans and animals. There was once a line of decency in our society that was very seldomly crossed. Now that line is almost invisible. I was at Disneyland with my kids only to be surrounded by thousands of Gays kissing,hugging and fondeling one another in front of decent families. Why would you put forth such sinfull activity in a supposed family friendly place? Why dont they go to thier night clubs and hump each other there? Why would something abnormal be tolerated by disney resulting in a slap in the face to the families that made disney in the first place. Thay say one is born gay. Well then discribe what gene causes gayness in people. I didnt think so. What explains the women that have had normal families with men and all of a sudden turn gay after they are devorced. All this is to wierd to me and I trully believe the end is coming. God bless America and may the right thing happen.
|Spread Love Not Hate|
Comment #104 | Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 at 12:52 pm
NO ON PROP
NO ON HATE
YES ON TOLERANCE
Comment #105 | Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 at 4:34 pm
Spread love not hate- you assume people who are not supportive of gay marriage, that they "hate" gays. And what if they don't? I am not in support of smoking dope, but I don't hate the people that do....don't assume people hate- that's the easy way out of this debate.
Comment #106 | Monday, Feb 1, 2010 at 6:27 pm
I'm with "the real deal". I'm open to whatever people want to do or be, just don't do it in public. I don't have to explain to my 7 year old why 2 guys were kissing, that's just inmoral!
BTW, disney tried apologizing to us and others for the gay day event they had by trying to give us tickets to return and we just chose NOT to return there. I won't support corporations like this that openly support this, we need kid friendly enviroments.
I don't hate, just don't put it out in public!
Comment #107 | Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 at 9:15 am
First of all, it says nothing about homosexuality in the bible...nothing about it being a sin...this is all the interpretation of churches....
second, i really want someone who is pro pop 8 to explain to me why they have the right to make decisions on an issue that effects other peoples lives....it doesnt effect you....oh wait....you dont want your kids to be taught about gay rights? maybe we should just eliminate civil rights movement and everything else....its life...they need to understand it....
Being gay is not a choice....it is not a lifestyle....it is not a way of life...it is simply a sexual preference that cannot be explained....voting yes on prop 8 wont make gay people chance their minds on being gay people...all it does is give you close minded people a sense of false security at the expense of others...thats it
this issue os one of the most frusterating things ive ever dealt with...as those who ves on it are doing so just because their church says they must....no thinking for themselves, just following along blindly..
you must think about how serious this really is....this isnt just denying gay people a right, its discrimination at its finest....your telling a group of people that they cant live a life that feels natural and necessary to them because YOUR religious beliefs say that it is wrong....if you dont like it, stay away from them but dont you dare for a second think that you have any right to decide whether its right for others.....oh ya, lobbyists and huge corps dnoating millions of dollars to get something on a ballot and to support their own twisted causes does not count my friends
Comment #108 | Friday, Feb 26, 2010 at 11:13 pm
The people who voted for Prop H8 are hateful.
How could you argue otherwise? They joined a long list of "Good Christians" who ...
• Were responsible for the Crusades
• Burned witches at the stake
• Were responsible for the Inquisitions
• Used Bible quotations to justify slavery until 1865
• Were responsible for exterminating 6 million Jews, 275,000 handicapped, 200,000 Gypsies, and 100,000 homosexuals in World War II
• Used Bible quotations to justify denying marriage to interracial couples until 1967
• Concealed child-molesting priests for decades
• Tortured captives in Guantanamo and Iraq
• Voted for Proposition H8 in 2008
Don't Be A "Good Christian"
Repeal Proposition H8
"Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God." Matthew 19:17
Comment #109 | Monday, Aug 16, 2010 at 11:57 am
Wow this was a great post.. I' m enjoying it.. good resource
Comment Continued : The comment above was written from the same location.
Comment #110 | Tuesday, Sep 7, 2010 at 9:07 pm
true marriage has and always been between a man and a woman no matter what the law says. If men were supposed to be with men there would be no need for surrogates.
Comment #111 | Tuesday, Sep 7, 2010 at 9:10 pm
ryan, two women or two men don't have the right of marriage. it is between a man and a woman.
Comment #112 | Tuesday, Sep 28, 2010 at 11:27 am
viva los gays!
Comment #113 | Monday, Jan 17, 2011 at 12:02 pm
Interesting article and one which should be more widely known about in my view. Your level of detail is good and the clarity of writing is excellent. I have bookmarked it for you so that others will be able to see what you have to say.
Comment #114 | Wednesday, Nov 30, 2011 at 5:33 pm
viva gay rights!!we will fight till the end!!!!
Comment #115 | Monday, Dec 5, 2011 at 9:59 am
I'm not worried. I'm sure it will be struck down like it already has been in the courts. tolerance wins out over bigotry every time!
Comment #116 | Monday, Mar 12, 2012 at 1:19 pm
Prop 8 has already been ruled unconstitutional and that decision upheld several times now in various courts. But the haters keep on appealing. Bigotry is so sad.
Comment #117 | Tuesday, Sep 18, 2012 at 3:39 pm
M A R R Y WHO YOU WANT TO... DUHHHH
Comment #118 | Thursday, Dec 6, 2012 at 7:50 pm
Gay marriage starts in Washington state today and tomorrow in Maryland. Take that haters!
Comment #119 | Friday, Dec 7, 2012 at 12:46 am
Article Comments are contributed by our readers, and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Fallbrook Village News staff. The name listed as the author for comments cannot be verified; Comment authors are not guaranteed to be who they claim they are.
Comment #120 | Tuesday, Dec 11, 2012 at 5:50 am
What does #120 have to do with Prop 8?